1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured scriptural case for or against KJV-only

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Dec 30, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 5 of 6
  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Please explain this verse then.

    Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.


    I am NOT trying to say the KJV translators were wrong or were being deceitful. I think they had a reason for using the word Easter, but I cannot find any evidence that it was because of some pagan feast. The articles you posted are merely opinions. History tells us that Herod Agrippa was very sympathetic towards the Jews, which is why he wanted to "please" them by not putting Peter to death during the passover week. (read the works of Josephus)
     
    #81 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are not getting it. There was no Greek word for passover. Pascha was an invented word taken from the Hebrew and came to take several meanings. This is where all the confusion came from. Sometimes it did refer to the passover, sometimes not.

    Read that until you understand it and you will understand where all the confusion came from.
     
    #82 Winman, Jan 1, 2013
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,217
    Likes Received:
    406
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is clear that the author of that article at that link ignores and skips over Luke 22:1 and Ezekiel 45:21 just as Winman does. Luke 22:1 and Ezekiel 45:21 refute the above claim that the two were always distinct, separate feasts and shows it to be false. It is amazing that Winman would imply that what Luke 22:1 states is not very credible.

    Luke 22:1 in the KJV
    Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh which is called the Passover.

    Winman has provided no sound evidence from the 1500's or the 1600's that suggests that "Easter" was used to refer to any pagan festival in any English Bible of that day. Perhaps he dodges the sound evidence from the 1500's and 1600's and appeals to modern, non-objective, biased KJV-only sources in order to rationalize or excuse his own KJV-only opinions. The modern KJV-only conjecture or unproven speculation that Easter at Acts 12:4 supposedly has to refer to some pagan festival is not actually sound, convincing evidence.

    The KJV translators were not perfect nor infallible. It has already been demonstrated in this thread that the KJV translators left some real errors found in the 1602 Bishops' Bible uncorrected in their 1611 edition, which clearly proves that they sometimes made mistakes. The claim that it was supposedly impossible for the KJV translators to overlook errors is disproved by this fact that they failed to correct several errors that were in the 1602 edition of the Bishops' Bible.
     
    #83 Logos1560, Jan 1, 2013
  4. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    The word pascha means Passover. In every other place we all agree it's referring to Passover. This text, the context is referring to Passover. We know that the whole week can be referred as Passover and not just the one day. There is nothing in the text to suggest any other day other that Passover is being spoken about. So there is no reason at all to believe that it's referring to anything but Passover. Easter(pagan holiday) is not reference at all.

    Why the KJV translators left Easter there we do not know. Nobody has anything from the translators stating why. It is possible to inadvertently leave it there. There are other examples of inconsistencies in the KJV translators from one translation team to another. The KJV was not providentially guided to prevent errors as the author quoted states. We can argue all day why the KJV translators used Easter instead of Passover, but when it all comes down to it Passover is what is being referred to here.
     
    #84 jbh28, Jan 1, 2013
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    That's your argument? I am right because I am right?

    Anything is POSSIBLE, but that doesn't make it likely. It is possible a large group of renowned scholars ALL overlooked this word, or mistranslated it, but it is HIGHLY unlikely.

    No, it is far more likely that these scholars recognized this verse was not speaking of the Jewish passover, but the pagan Easter which was indeed celebrated at this time. Where do you think we got Easter with bunny rabbits, and Easter eggs?

    But saying you are right because you are right is not an argument.
     
    #85 Winman, Jan 1, 2013
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    I AM getting it. The context demands that the time period in Acts 12:4 is the 8 days of Passover or Unleavened bread. Luke proves this.

    And you will have to show me where pascha had "several" meanings. I do not see that.

    I DO believe there was a reason why the translators left the word Easter in the text, but no one knows what that is. As I have said (and others as well), the Geneva used the word passover in Acts 12:4. Do you think the scholars that translated the GB made a mistake?
     
    #86 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    I think we got that from the Roman Catholic Church because of it's mixing of paganism with Christianity, not from Acts 12:4.
     
    #87 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
  8. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
    I believe this is why Jesus gave the instruction to knock the dust from your sandals and move on. There is a time in a discussion where edification is no longer possible and it becomes an argument with no real purpose.
     
    #88 mont974x4, Jan 1, 2013
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Amy, I do not have the time or energy to teach you, please read the article.

    If you read you would see that the word Easter was in the scriptures BEFORE the word Passover. It was Tyndale who came up with the word "passover" and replaced the word Easter with it. It did not always apply to the Passover (the 14th day of April), some times it meant spring. Read the article.

    As you see here, Tyndale did not always translate it the same, because it did not always have the same meaning.

    The word Easter is a pagan word. The RCC assimilated Easter and made it to represent Jesus's resurrection, but that was not it's original meaning. In time people became to understand Easter as the Jewish passover, but that was not it's original meaning.

    Read the article, you are a grown person, if you really want to understand this issue you can study.

    But don't go around saying the King James has errors when you don't know that. I don't think the Lord would be very happy about that.
     
    #89 Winman, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2013
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    The marginal note regarding Easter in my Cambridge KJV says "Gk as in Mark 14:1".

    Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

    Clearly Easter is another word for Passover.
     
    #90 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
  11. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Whoa! I never said it had errors! I understand the whole problem with the words pascha, easter, and passover. I'm saying that the word Easter in Acts 12:4 means passover. I'm saying that I don't know why the translators used the word Easter instead of passover. And truth be told you don't either. But I love my KJV and use it as my primary bible. I rarely if ever read MVs anymore.
     
    #91 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    You most certainly did. This is post #30

    And I'm telling you that the most likely and sensible explanation of why the KJB translators left Easter in the scriptures is because they realized the Jewish passover was past and that in this one spot it was speaking of the pagan festival of Easter. What is so difficult to understand about this?
     
    #92 Winman, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2013
  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,217
    Likes Received:
    406
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually, your comments better describe your own posts and your own argument.

    Time after time statements in the articles to which you have appealed have been proven to be wrong by Luke 22:1 and Ezekiel 45:21. You skip over the fact that you appealed to false claims and even made false claims in your posts in this thread.

    You may stubbornly assert that you must be right, but you fall far short of backing up your claims with any sound, convincing evidence from the 1500's and 1600's.
     
    #93 Logos1560, Jan 1, 2013
  14. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,217
    Likes Received:
    406
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In his commentary on Acts, John R. Rice noted that “the feast of unleavened bread and the Passover feast were now called the whole seven days, the Passover” (p. 272).

    Concerning Acts 12:4, Marvin Vincent indicated that the word was used to refer to “the whole seven days of the feast” (Word Studies, I, p. 508).

    In his commentary on Acts, Oliver B. Greene wrote: “The Greek in this verse should have been translated ’after the Passover,’ which signifies after the whole festival is over” (II, p. 199).

    Zodhiates observed that “in a wider sense it [pascha] also included the seven days of unleavened bread, the paschal festival” (Complete Word Study Dictionary, p. 1127).

    At its note for Matthew 26:3, the Ryrie Study Bible affirmed that “the entire festival was often called ’Passover’” (p. 1468).
     
    #94 Logos1560, Jan 1, 2013
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Well, you got me there. I apologize. I shouldn't have said "error". I totally trust my bible.


    It's difficult to understand because there is no scriptural or historical evidence. I will gladly change my mind if you can provide any. But articles by non scholars and non historians do not fill the bill.
     
    #95 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
  16. mont974x4

    mont974x4 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    Win, you misunderstand her.

    Easter in the KJV does not mean Passover. The problem is your heroes, the one who translated the KJV, made a mistake. That's the point we are making and you are refusing to see.


    Let's try another example.

    I drive a white truck. I tell my Mexican friend that I drive a white truck. If he tells his friend, in Spanish, that I drive a black truck it does not mean white means black. It means he made a mistake. That is true no matter how many times it's told, in Spanish, that I drive a black truck. It doesn't matter how trusted my friend is or how correctly he may translate my other words.
     
    #96 mont974x4, Jan 1, 2013
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,217
    Likes Received:
    406
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The many English-speaking believers who read, accepted, and believed the Geneva Bible understood Acts 12:4 to be referring to the Passover. The Geneva Bible was the most commonly read and most popular English Bible until around the 1650's.

    I have found no books written after the making of the Geneva Bible in 1560 and up through the 1600's that claimed that the 1560 Geneva Bible had any error at Acts 12:4.

    The claim that the rendering "passover" at Acts 12:4 would supposedly be an error is a modern-day claim likely first made in the late 1900's.

    At Acts 12:4, an edition of the KJV printed by the King's printer at London in 1660 has this marginal note: “Gr. The Passover.“ The printer/editor of this 1660 edition had available firsthand information so that he should have known if the KJV translators supposedly intended any other meaning than "passover". This evidence from 1660 is far more strong than present-day KJV-only opinions.

    Later, the 1853 American Bible Society’s edition of the KJV has a similar note for Easter at Acts 12:4: “Greek the Passover.”

    KJV-only author Peter Ruckman had claimed that the KJV translators themselves “put the accepted meaning [Passover] in the margin,” but this marginal note is not actually found in the 1611 edition but in a later KJV edition (Differences, p. 18).

    In their 1818 Oxford edition of the KJV, George D’Oyly and Richard Mant have this note for “Easter” at Acts 12:4: “’After the passover,‘ that is, after the days of unleavened bread, mentioned at verse 3” (Vol. 3).

    We have evidence from editors/printers of KJV editions who were some of the ones responsible for making a good number of corrections to the 1611 edition, and that evidence affirms that "passover" was the correct meaning at Acts 12:4.
     
    #97 Logos1560, Jan 1, 2013
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thank you Amy, I am sure you meant no offence.

    Everybody keeps bringing up Luke 22:1 as proof that Acts 12:4 should have said passover. Not so, look again.

    Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

    Now, you believe this is saying the whole week of unleavened bread is the passover. That is possible, but that is not what is being said here, look at how passover is used in the rest of this chapter.

    Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

    Note they called the 1st day the day of unleavened bread when the passover was killed. This is ONE day. Luke 22:1 was speaking of this one day.

    Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

    How many days is this speaking of? ONE.

    Luk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

    How many days? ONE.

    Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.


    How many days? ONE.

    Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

    How many days? ONE.

    Luke 22:1 is not looking so strong for you anymore is it?

    I have read that Luke 22:1 is an EXCEPTION, it is the only time that all 8 days are referred to as the passover. You cannot use one exception (if it indeed is an exception) to argue that Acts 12:4 should say passover.

    The 1st day (the Passover on the 14th) was also a day when unleavened bread was eaten.

    I am not going to keep arguing with this mob of critics. I have presented my case. Believe what you want to believe.
     
    #98 Winman, Jan 1, 2013
  19. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,217
    Likes Received:
    406
    Faith:
    Baptist

    No one claimed that the Greek word for passover was not often used to refer to the one day of passover. Your claims that the word was used at other times for one day does not refute what Luke 22:1 stated.

    The fact remains that it was also used to refer to the entire eight days including the one day of Passover and the seven days of unleavened bread and even for just the seven days of the feast of unleavened bread as at Ezekiel 45:21.

    At Ezekiel 45:21, the Passover is referred to as “a feast of seven days.” According to Ezekiel 45:21, the Hebrew word translated “Passover” in English could be and was clearly used for or used to include the feast of Unleavened Bread, which is a feast of seven days.

    In Matthew 26:17, the name “Passover” was used for a time described as “the first day of the feast of unleavened bread.”

    After Jesus and his disciples had already observed the one day of Passover (Luke 22:14-15; John 13:1), the same Greek word was still used for a later time when the feast of unleavened bread was in progress (John 18:28).

    Moved by the Holy Spirit, Luke could definitely have used the Greek word at Acts 12:4 in the same sense as he did in Luke 22:1. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, the context of Acts 12:4 is in agreement with the understanding that this Greek word was used in the same sense as in Luke 22:1.
     
    #99 Logos1560, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2013
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    I do not mean to be part of a mob. That is not my intention.

    Please read this from a Jewish site.


    According to Jews, the passover is a week long festival, not just one day.
     
    #100 Amy.G, Jan 1, 2013
Page 5 of 6
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...