Scriptural support for violence against heretics?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by MikeS, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. MikeS

    MikeS
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    I hope, here in the 21st century, that we can discuss this question without getting nasty. Given the great deal of violence done against perceived heretics in past ages by Christians of many different stripes, I'm just trying to get into the Mind of the Age. Did these people have (or think they had) reasonable Scriptural support for what they did, or were they simply acting out "the end justifies any means"?
     
  2. Harley4Him

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    I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks who still think they can find it today.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Perhaps some "quotes" from those who practiced it "most" would be helpful.

    Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
    The question:
    A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:
    The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:
    In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
    Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

    We know from the decrees of Popes and councils that the RCC viewed itself as having authority over the state.

    The Fourth Lateran Council, for example, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):
    Other councils, such as Vienna, issued anti-Semitic decrees that ordered the persecution of Jews. The persecution of other groups, such as the Waldensians, was also ordered by the RCC.
    For example, Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull in 1487 ordering that people "rise up in arms against" and "tread under foot" the Waldensians.
    Roman Catholic and former Jesuit Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988),
    The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council,
    Consider the following news stories from the Vatican City.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. MikeS

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    Bob, are you incapable of answering the question, or are you just choosing not to? It's an extremely simple question.

    You can always start up another thread if you want to bash the Catholic Church (and I know you do). After all, history clearly shows that no other Christian group ever hurt a fly, right? In the meantime, put your hatred on the shelf for a bit and answer the question.
     
  5. MikeS

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  6. BobRyan

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    I gave quotes from RC sources themselves NOT from anti-RC catholic-bashing sources.

    But is seems that "for some" living the dark is the only acceptable life.

    Hard to believe that you won't even let Catholics speak for Catholics. I let the RC voices speak for themselves and still you turn a deaf-ear to THEM blaming THEIR statements on ME.

    And yet --- did we expect anything else?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. gb93433

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    The OT has some. Wasn't it the case with anyone who practiced divination.
     
  8. MikeS

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    Here Bob, I'll repeat the question for you. This time, maybe you'll answer in your own words rather than submitting another cut-and-paste blizzard:

    I hope, here in the 21st century, that we can discuss this question without getting nasty. Given the great deal of violence done against perceived heretics in past ages by Christians of many different stripes, I'm just trying to get into the Mind of the Age. Did these people have (or think they had) reasonable Scriptural support for what they did, or were they simply acting out "the end justifies any means"?
     
  9. BobRyan

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    "again" - you ask what THEY were thinking. I choose to quote THEM rather than tell you what I THINK about what they must be thinking.

    Why is the concept of letting THEM speak for THEMSELVES so difficult?

    Why is it you would so much rather I speak FOR them saying what I think they think?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Possibly they viewed their church-state union as a theocracy and used the rules of the theocracy in Israel to justify "death to their detractors".

    But as for "torture" as some have already said here - torture was to be "more kind" to the victim here than the monsterous-god-proclaimed-by-those-churches was going to be to that same victime if they did not change their views.

    And so there again - an error regarding some aspect of God may have led them to these extremes as being "more merciful than god" in their eyes.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. GraceSaves

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    Mike,

    Save your breath. Others will answer your question. Focus on them.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Those who feel comfortable asking about the views of the RCC in the dark ages while ignoring the RCC authorities that speak to that point - choose to live in their own world of darkness even beyond the dark ages.

    The members here of this board have already spoken to the subject of "what they were thinking"

    CathConvert -

    I appreciate your being honest on that point.

    You are surely right that the RCC used that very same logic to rationalize the monstrous cruelty she practiced in the dark ages.

    I have little doubt that she viewed the horrors she inflicted on victim after victim - in slaughter after slaughter as "kind" by contrast to the God that she preached.

    You have made the point well.
    </font>[/QUOTE]So while ignoring the historians and RC authorities quoted here - perhaps you would consider also ignoring those who have posted on this subect on this message board as in the case above.

    Nothing like staying the dark.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. GraceSaves

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    Bob,

    Did you by chance see the words "Scriptural support" in the topic and the question? I don't think you did.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    In the "guessing" that is being requested - is it permitted to simply "quote the sources" rather than "guess for them"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Note that although Catholics have a history - rich in promoting the subject line - we have yet to see anyone provide "scriptural support" outside of the quotes from them THAT I gave.

    How "instructive".

    They seem content to simply post complaints about form and technicality - as they make false accusations.

    How surprising.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. MikeS

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    Bob,

    Maybe the fault is mine, but I have to tell you that I rarely have any idea what your posts are actually saying. :confused:
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The RC sources that I quoted "speak for themselves" in describing "violence" and the "support for it".

    (I fail to see how that fact is "confusing").

    Having those RC sources "speak for themselves" can hardly be construed as "RC-bashing"... and yet some here would do that.

    I have even including the spiritual - "defense of the violence" that some on THIS board have posted and "Still" -- you find that "confusing".

    How is it that these sources "speaking for themselves" are so "confusing to you"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Harley4Him

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    Bob, do you spend as much time studying your own religion as you do studying Catholics?
     
  19. Justified Saint

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    Oy, Mr. Ryan is at it again, he is trying to quote sources. I thought he maybe would have learned something from his Durant debacle, but apparently not. It's funny how the sources always stay the same too, for Mr. Ryan AP reports and Catholic digest will remain the arbiter of (Catholic) truth and history, simply unbelievable. [​IMG]

    Once again Bob seems to be amazed that the Catholic Church's members are actually humans and that humans can actually sin. Perhaps this has escaped Mr. Ryan's notice in the past.
     
  20. Justified Saint

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    Harley - I would suspect the answer to your question to be yes. Some people's faith is based more on the active denail of another faith. This explains Mr. Ryan's necessity to know more about Catholicism, or rather what he thinks Catholicism is about.
     

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