Scriptural training and correction or violence?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Bartimaeus, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    24 He that spareth his ROD hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

    Pr 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying

    Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
    14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    Pr 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

    I have recently accused that I am a violent person who promotes violence against children. I was also told that there is an alternative to chastening a child. I have seen children who could have been named OSAMA. The violence that is purveyed by untrained, unloved, unchastened children is worse than a little "lickin" on the rump with a paddle. Are we out of place and out of time just because we want to train our children with love and fear? Does the Bible still have authority in the area of childrearing?
    Thanks ----Bart
    ....pray hard and gently squeeze the trigger.
     
  2. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    A correct spanking is not a show of violence. You don't have to accept that premise, first of all. You merely have to "retrain" people as to what a proper spanking is for and how it is carried out. I don't believe we use a spanking for merely childish behavior.....forgetting something, or doing something that annoys the adults. There's going to be natural consequences for those things that the parent often has to make happen.
    But a spanking is for outright disobedience and rebellion, and is done quietly and calmly (on the part of the parent.) Its also a good idea to not allow the child to kick and scream outrageously during the spanking, but instead to stand and take it. Then talk to them and pray with them....make sure you have their heart.

    There's a vast difference between the above, and an out-of-control adult chasing a child around the house with a broomstick.
     
  3. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you bapmom,
    You are exactly correct. (in difference to generally correct, Ha!) I went through our child rearing years believing and attempting to apply a premise that there is a difference between correction and punishment. I learned also that discipline is only part of training. One who would raise a child with only discipline is one who is unjust and overbearing. Training as the scripture prescribes, gives us a balanced program of principles in love, correction and reverant admonision in a prayerful, consistent fashion. To give a child only one of these, or to leave one out, regardless of what "Dr. Deep" says is a prescription for disaster. If our children grow up to be great people for the Lord it is not of our doing, it will all be by the grace and mercy of God.
    Thanks ----Bart
     
  4. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have to laugh at some memories. My dad spanked me when necessary. Once I hid under the bed and he simply sat on top informing me that he could sit there longer than I could hide under.

    He won.

    Another time I declared I had to go potty. He told me if he didn't see anything in the toilet he would know I was lying and I would get two spankings.

    I deserved them. I got them. And I did not grow up to beat my own kids!

    There are times when warnings and reasoning simply don't make it. Especially with 3-7 year olds! We spanked for defined and known reasons -- it was never a matter of a surprise punishment. The kids knew what the consequences were for specific infractions -- four only deserved spankings.

    Swats on a toddler's behind were different. They were to keep them away from dangerous situations (to themselves or others) when the toddler was not obeying and not simply a matter of parental frustration.

    I discovered that there is definitely an age to end spankings from my oldest son. When he was about ten, I asked him to watch his sister for about twenty minutes while I ran down to the store for something which must have been quite necessary. Sis was asleep and I told Scott not to turn on TV, but to keep an ear open for her. She was about four or five at the time.

    I came home quickly and as I walked through the garage into the family room to go up the stairs into the kitchen I felt the TV. It was warm.

    "Scott, you were watching TV. I told you not to."

    "Yeah...."

    "You have a choice of punishments. Do you prefer a spanking or being grounded until Friday?" (I forget what day of the week this happened, but the grounding would have been for about two or three days).

    He spent what may be one of the most miserable half hours of his young life deciding! Then he chose the spanking, because it would be over quickly.

    I did spank him. It was his last. It had lost its effectiveness!

    Scott is 32 now and we both laugh about that incident. He remembers it vividly and tells me that the half hour of deciding was worse than the punishment itself.
     
  5. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Correction is still a form of punishment, but it's a chastizing punishment and not a punitive punishment. The distinction is quite clear in Scripture, and should be quite clear in child-rearing.
     
  6. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    1,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    he that spareth the rod hateth his son
     
  7. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Correction is still a form of punishment, but it's a chastizing punishment and not a punitive punishment. The distinction is quite clear in Scripture, and should be quite clear in child-rearing. </font>[/QUOTE]Hope of Glory, I did not mean that as an absolute and I did not make that clear, it was just a boundary that I applied from my own viewpoint to help me not go beyond what is right. Sorry about that and please advise us the difference between chastising and the word punitive. It would seem to me that any form of chasitising can be punitive or corrective. Thanks ----Bart
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pr 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

    The tighter it is bound, the harder you ought to be swinging.
     
  9. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    Bart and James:

    The Bible doesn't say to spank a child.

    It says to beat them.

    It also says for that which will threaten the soul of the child.

    Do you beat your child?

    Do you beat them only for that which threatens their soul?

    List the last three times you beat them, and the reason for it.

    Please explain to me how you beat them, I'd like to know your definition of beating a child in a Biblical manner.
     
  10. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spanking is now considered a form of abuse. If you are seen spanking a child in public or in private - you can be turned in to child protective services.

    As foster parents, we have to sign an agreement that we will not spank our foster kids or our own children while they are in our home.

    There are other good disciplinary practices that do not involve spanking or hitting. Discipline is all in the tone of voice, eye contact [critical], and consistency. Acceptable forms of discipline are time out, and firmly holding a child's wrist or lower arm to stop momentum. Other than that, anything else that is physically applied is considered abuse and you can lose your license.

    The problem with spankings, from a personal perspective [I received them growing up as well], is that many parents do not use them as a controlled form of punishment, but as a corrective measure that I believe is indeed a form of abuse.

    I will not spank any more, although I did with my kids growing up. I have come to believe that spanking does nothing but cause deeper anger and rebellion. Part of my decision came when I was taught by a pastor and his wife that a child should be spanked with a belt or paddle, until they showed remorse and tears - which often meant the child was black and blue from bruising - they had very strong willed children. I shudder with the memories of other parents who accepted this form of discipline, also, as I believe it will cause trauma in some children at some point.

    I would rather not spank at all, then cause harm or it be a traumatic affect on children. It's funny, I remember the spankings I was given, but could not even begin to remember the reason why.

    Lest you think I am out to lunch [​IMG] - we have six boys - 8 and under. Two are extremely disabled, and when they get into trouble, we put them in a secure area for misbehaving. One baby is 28 months old and the other is 18 months old. So they sit on "time out turtle" or are put in the crib for a minute or two. It has been very effective. The 7 year old has privileges and toys taken away [he gets unplugged - nothing that runs on electric or batteries]. The 4 yr old goes in time out or gets a toy taken away. At this point, we are very successful. Always, time out and then discussion about what they did and why they were in time out. They must maintain eye contact - even the babies - that is what makes it affective. We have seen the results, so I know it works.

    If I may add one other thought to the passages that are given for using the rod - I believe that those verses are meant for rebellious young men [late teens] who were not making good choices. I do not believe that God has ever instructed people to spank their young children - it is degrading and can be considered abusive in certain situations.

    I know I am going to take a lot of heat for my views. Perhaps, because I am older and I have seen a lot of "beatings" and "spankings", I find that they did little good in the end [pun intended :D ]

    I will not argue my position, just making a comment from my little old perspective. I know I won't change your mind, just as you won't change mine ;)
     
  11. rbell

    rbell
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    11,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Although I do spank my kids (for serious, willful disobedience), the above statement by James is the kind of commentary that makes folks like me look bad. Not a good thing to say.
     
  12. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    eloidalmanutha, for the first time I can recall, you've made a logical post that I agree with 100%. Thank you.

    Thank you.
    Degrading...that leads me to another question.

    Why do some parents make their children expose their private parts as part of the punishment? Where in the world did this idea come from, and for those of you who do it to your kids, why do you have them become part naked as part of a punishment? I'm sure every adult knows WHERE the childs rear end is without having them expose it. I don't get it.
     
  13. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    ohoh . . . maybe I need to rethink my position . . . :eek:

    JUST KIDDING :D thanx for the support [​IMG]

    and you are right - degrading is exactly how I felt when I was spanked - we had to lower our pants as well - bare butt. In my heart, I hated my parents for spanking me. All it did was make me more careful not to get caught. It is a violent act, I don't care how "careful" or "objective" you are.

    Has anyone considered that the beat the child verses were meant for a time and place that does not relate to today? Can the Holy Spirit teach us to correct in a different way than physical discipline? I just don't see NT teaching correlating at all.

    For instance - people were stoned in the OT for certain sins. We don't do that any more - why? Could the beating verses have to do with Mosaic Law? Did Jesus advocate physical correction for children? Just some thoughts to mull over.

    Since I gave my life to God 10 years ago, this whole area of physical discipline has me grieved deep in my soul. Something is not right with it.
     
  14. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    The word for 'rod' in Proverbs 23:13-14 is the same word used in Psalm 23 ("Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me"). The rod was used (and still is) by the shepherd for two things, basically: 1. To drive off predators, and 2. To throw at a sheep to bring him/her back to the herd if they were wandering too far. Its purpose was not to hurt but to frighten the animal back to the safety of the group.

    The verb translated by the KJV as 'beat' is 'Nakah' and can mean anything from striking lightly to murdering! It definitely means physical striking, however.

    The Lord will physically protect us and physically discipline us. We cannot do less for our children. I don't like the KJV translation 'beat' because that is wrong. But the NIV uses 'punish' with the rod.

    The interesting thing about my own children is that the only one I did not spank (he came to us physically abused and I refused to associate myself with that abuse in his mind) is the one who refuses to get in contact with us and we have not heard from for over two years now. He is 23.

    All the other kids are still part of the family. Even my youngest daughter, who was in open rebellion most of her life finally emailed a very, very sweet letter recently and is emotionally on her way home now.

    They all were spanked at one time or another, and some more often than others, except for the one who has basically 'divorced' us all at this point. We'll see what the future brings.

    Why 'expose' the 'privates'? Because when their little bottoms were bare I could make a terrific sound by cupping my hand slightly. My intent was never to hurt the child, but it was to produce enough sound to scare them into thinking they were being hurt! The shepherd has no intention of hurting the sheep when he disciplines them with the rod, but he does want to use fear, if that is necessary, for their own protection.

    Have one more anecdote. Youngest daughter is now 21. When she was about 16 or 17, she was furious with me one day for making her clean up a potted plant she had purposely knocked over because she was already mad at me for something or another. Out of her mouth came language that would make the proverbial sailor blush. It was pure instinct when I slapped her across the face with my hand and told her that kind of language was never to be in my home.

    She looked at me, stunned, and told me that was child abuse and she was calling the police. I grinned and told her great. Then I would be in jail with three meals a day cooked for me, she would go to a foster home and so would Chris and the house would probably be sold and that would be that.

    Still stunned, she stared at me, put down the phone, and sulked into her room. She never used language like that around me again.

    I had never slapped her in the face before and she had long since outgrown spankings. I have never slapped her since. But it was, at that time, a fast and honestly furious, way of getting a strong and non-negotiable point across. She understood.

    I hated, absolutely hated, spanking any of my kids. "It hurts me worse than it hurts you" was definitely in my heart every time. But, quite frankly, I don't care what our current culture claims, a spanking is not child abuse -- it is, as the Bible says, part of saving that child from much, much worse. They are to be administered calmly, always, and judiciously, and, for me, never with intent to hurt!

    I will say that the boys were the ones who responded to the physical punishment. The girls tended to die a thousand deaths when their social privileges were curtailed!

    The punishment should fit the crime -- and the child. But physical punishment is biblically not suggested. It is commanded.

    I knew my Dad cared deeply when I was punished that way as a child. I never had any doubts about that. My children knew I cared just as deeply. Discipline was important. So were the hugs afterwards... [​IMG]
     
  15. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    We live in a world that is cold and cruel. 3 out of 4 girls are molested by the time they are ten yrs old. Physical abuse is a way of life for many men, women, and children in this country and around the world. Physical and sexual abuse is destroying people to ever growing numbers.

    The quran teaches that a husband may beat his wife. Islam is a fast growing religion in this country. Girls/women are considered property to be used and abused.

    Most of my daughter's friends have been molested, beaten/and or abused.

    Are you seeing a trend?

    But it's ok to strip your child bare, smack their butt, and scare the living daylights out of them to "punish" them, so they can tell their friends that they got beat too.

    There has to be another way, or you are going to be part of the curse that has inflicted society, no matter what you "believe".
     
  16. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Helen hit the nail on the head. It is not a suggestion, it is a commandment. The method that God has ordained for chastening a child is the rod. Anyone who says there is a better way is making themselves to be smarter than God. It saddens me that Christians would pretend to be able to love better than the Lord. I'm not saying that there is no room for other methods of punishment, or that every infraction deserves 40 stripes save one. But anyone who rejects the testimony of proverbs on this subject rejects wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

    Revelation 3:19
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    The Lord says He chastens those whom He loves. If we love our children, we must do the same. To not chasten them when they go astray is to not love them, no matter what we 'feel' about the subject. Does chastening always mean spanking? Not necessarily, but what does the Bible say?

    Proverbs 13:24
    24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him quickly.

    Chastening is contrasted to a parent 'sparing his rod'. It also says he chastens him quickly. What is quicker, a spanking or grounding him for a week?

    Proverbs 19:18
    18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

    Chastening a child ought to cause tears. I know that children can make their parents think that they are going to die if you spank them, but that is not true. It is a tactic employed by the flesh to deter further chastening. If you allow the first high pitched scream to deter you from your purpose, then the child has successfully chastened you.

    Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    You were probably never scourged in your life. To claim that spanking is child abuse is to accuse the Lord.

    There must be balance, as in all things. The Lord certainly doesn't cause the earth to swallow us for every little sin, but some things are more serious than others. There are some things that may cause God to kill a man.

    1 Corinthians 11:29-30
    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    Our children need to have the proper motivation for obedience. They need to be taught to love the Lord, and to desire to please Him through obedience to His word. But they need to know that daddy is going to be obedient to God's word also, and ought to be able to counter great temptation with 'my dad will beat me into next week if I do that'.
     
  17. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    The 'curse' that has inflicted society is sin, and the only fix for that is going to be the Lord Jesus coming and ruling the world with a rod of iron. Please use scripture to back up your contention that spanking is abusive.
     
  18. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    The 'curse' that has inflicted society is sin, and the only fix for that is going to be the Lord Jesus coming and ruling the world with a rod of iron. Please use scripture to back up your contention that spanking is abusive. </font>[/QUOTE]Like I said to begin with, I know I will take heat for my stance. I am more than happy to submit to the chastening of the Lord and He has made sure that nothing escapes His every little detail in the matter. That is not the same thing at all. He never embarrasses me or degrades me. He simply brings me to my knees. HUGE difference.

    How can you even begin to compare Jesus' iron rod on the enemies of God, to the discipline of a child? That is sick.

    As I pointed out, the rod texts are OT and I am curious if they are part of Torah, but no one has even taken the time to examine this. We are so anxious to say that Jesus fulfilled the Law, yet we want to pick and chose what we call law to fit our theology. I also mentioned that stoning was part of punishment, so why don't we stone today? Scourging with 40 minus one stripes was also punishment. Are you advocating that practice again?

    We are also called to be a Light. How can you be a light when you are beating your children the same way the world beats theirs? Jesus taught compassion and mercy and blessed the kids. Love and firmness can be just as effective "chastening", as a smack on the bare butt - which provokes, humiliates, and degrades.


    Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition [exhortation - spiritual training] of the Lord.
     
  19. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    0
    James wrote:
    Chastening a child ought to cause tears. I know that children can make their parents think that they are going to die if you spank them, but that is not true. It is a tactic employed by the flesh to deter further chastening. If you allow the first high pitched scream to deter you from your purpose, then the child has successfully chastened you.

    Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    You were probably never scourged in your life. To claim that spanking is child abuse is to accuse the Lord.


    eloidalmantha:
    it is not a matter of spanking until there are tears. God does not chasten us by taking down our pants and beating our butts. His chastising can be a physical thing, but it is not demeaning, degrading or embarassing.

    I am stunned at your words and sit here crying. You do not know what you are talking about. I don't think you have met kids who have screamed in terror from beatings and abuse. that is not of God. a high pitched scream is not manipulation. it is terror, a provoked response of mental pain and suffering, regardless of physical pain. It is a lie to think that you can explain to your child that it hurts you more than it hurts them. That is what you were taught, but it is a lie.

    I am done with this thread. I cannot handle it. I have met too many people like you whose lives have been destroyed, all in the Name of God.
     
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes we can use the rod in an improper manner. We are not called to beat our children the same way the world beats their children. We should be beating our children in a manner peculiar to our calling. There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything, but often to the untrained eye they may look the same.

    2 Corinthians 7:9-10
    9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
    10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

    The end goal of chastening a child is to bring the subject to repentence, so that God will not have to chasten them later in life. Paul rejoiced that the Corinthians were made sorry and repented. Why is that? Because he understood what would happen to them if they did not repent.

    There are things that I have done in my life that I cannot take back, things far more serious than stealing cookies or telling fibs. But I had to learn about the consequences of sin the hard way, by causing serious afflictions to come upon myself and those I love. I would not have my children suffer the things I did because I 'loved' them too much to drive home the seriousness of sin and it's consequences.

    Hebrews 12:11
    11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
     

Share This Page

Loading...