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Scriptural training and correction or violence?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Bartimaeus, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    were they not the children of God? ;)
     
  2. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    Jesus did not keep the Law of Moses. He is God :D the Law was to keep from sinning. Jesus is without sin, always has been, always will be :D
     
  3. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    I think you are comparing apples and oranges. The money changers were evil men who were making a mockery of God. Not sure how this applies or compares to a two year old who undoes a roll of tp in the bathroom :D </font>[/QUOTE]And eloidalmanutha, I would not spank a two year-old for mischief either. Spanking, in the way I would understand its usage, is only for willful and defiant behavior. It is not my first resort, and it is not to punish accidents, mischief, or irresponsibility.

    Of course, I wonder...was Jesus trying to "beat the devil" out of those moneychangers? :D
     
  4. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Eloid...,
    You respond scripturally by giving us examples of how the Lord Jesus dealt with adults. You are not giving scripture for children. I gave Gina L. scriptural citations for OT v NT and you quoted my post but you gave no scripture to refute it. You only posted opinion.
    1. The NT covenant is not portrayed greater in any other book more than it is in Hebrews, yet the writer deals with adults with "CURRENT TIME" example of how a father is to deal with a son and you do not respond.
    2. Where is your scriptural response to the question of what the NT definition of chasten? (again in the New Testament covenant book of Hebrews) You only give your opinion.
    3. You give adult examples of forgiveness and redemption and when someone else gives an example of force and chastisement you throw it off as apples and oranges.
    4. Let me use your own words. Answer this question please. What are we to do with "an evil [child] that is making a mockery of God"?
    5. Please show us anywhere in the scriptures, anywhere that it says to wrestle with your children to restrain them so as to redirect their thoughts.
    Please do not respond with your opinions.
    Thanks ----Bart
     
  5. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    Spanking, handled properly, is a good tool to help in the nurture and training of children.

    Some people will mishandle spanking their kids. They will do it in a way that is harmful and cruel. Nothing will stop them from doing that except to be prohibited from spanking.
     
  6. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus did not keep the Law of Moses. He is God :D the Law was to keep from sinning. Jesus is without sin, always has been, always will be :D </font>[/QUOTE]The law of Moses was handed down from God above. Jesus did keep that law.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    Had Jesus not kept the law of Moses handed down from Heaven, Jesus would not have been the sinless sacrifice.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus became sin for us.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 For &lt;gar&gt; he hath made &lt;poieo&gt; him to be sin &lt;hamartia&gt; for &lt;huper&gt; us &lt;hemon&gt;, who &lt;ho&gt; knew &lt;ginosko&gt; no &lt;me&gt; sin &lt;hamartia&gt;; that &lt;hina&gt; we &lt;hemeis&gt; might be made &lt;ginomai&gt; the righteousness &lt;dikaiosune&gt; of God &lt;theos&gt; in &lt;en&gt; him &lt;autos&gt;.
     
  9. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    were they not the children of God? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]My definition of a child of God is a person who has owned their wickedness and cast themselves on the mercy of God, forfeiting all other hope outside of the grace of God.

    Please give us your definition of "the children of God" as you used it in this post.
    Thanks -----Bart
     
  10. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    And eloidalmanutha, I would not spank a two year-old for mischief either. Spanking, in the way I would understand its usage, is only for willful and defiant behavior. It is not my first resort, and it is not to punish accidents, mischief, or irresponsibility.

    Of course, I wonder...was Jesus trying to "beat the devil" out of those moneychangers? :D [/QB][/QUOTE]

    ok . . . I am trying to get a handle on this - you say spanking for defiance, but I hear others say spanking for misbehaving as well. is this accurate?

    yeah, I think He was :eek:
     
  11. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word New Member

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    Bart,

    I think he may be stuck on the 5 questions above. I don't understand why he is able to use adults as examples and no one else can?
     
  12. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    huh? explain - please :cool:
     
  13. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    you are not making sense, but I will try to answer you. In Heb 12, God is used as a Father figure to us as His children, likened to a Father of a child. In God's view, He sees us as children as we see our children as children. He does not see us as adults. Jesus refers to us as children/lambs. John refers to us as children [1John 1,2,3] It is standard understanding that we are the children of God - His adopted sons and daughters through the blood of Jesus.

    I am not trying to be difficult, but I have no clue what you are talking about in your numbered statements. You have to quote me or I am lost.

    1) ?

    2) ?

    3) ?

    4) what would I do with an evil child that makes a mockery of God? I would pray for him/her. I would not beat the tar out of them. I have had to deal with several teenage foster children. One of them was a Muslim who hated the christian "God". I did nothing to him, but beg the agency to get him out of my house. after 5 weeks they finally removed him. until that point I simply showed him kindness and compassion. I was not afraid of him, although I was told I should be fearful. I shared the gospel with him, but he would not listen.

    5) not sure what you are talking about. I do not "restrain" as a discipline - you must be thinking of someone else.
     
  14. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    You have brought up an interesting question. I do not believe that scripture says that Jesus had to keep the Law in order to be the sinless Lamb. Jesus is God. He did not have to keep Torah, as He could not sin. Torah was given so Israel knew what was sin and were commanded to obey to keep from sinning. He fulfilled Torah because He was sinless, not because He "kept" Torah.

    If you look carefully at Jesus' ministry - He did in fact "break" Torah :D But that would be a different thread, before we totally get derailed ;)
     
  15. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word New Member

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    At least twice Jesus is mentioned as an ensample or example to the disciples. Don't you think being born a Jew, that He was held to the Jewish Laws handed down from Heaven?

    Where did Jesus break His own law? If He did, then He was not the sinless lamb. For sin is the transgression of the Law.
     
  16. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    eloidalmanutha,
    If I am not mistaken, the first post on page 5 is your post and you made the statement, "were they not the children of God?"

    Please explain your definition of "the children of God" as you used it in this statement.

    Thanks ------Bart
     
  17. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    originally stated on page 5:

    eloidalmanutha:
    "In Heb 12, God is used as a Father figure to us as His children, likened to a Father of a child. In God's view, He sees us as children as we see our children as children. He does not see us as adults. Jesus refers to us as children/lambs. John refers to us as children [1John 1,2,3] It is standard understanding that we are the children of God - His adopted sons and daughters through the blood of Jesus."
     
  18. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    so then, let me ask you. If Jesus kept Torah perfectly, then did He sacrifice a lamb for Himself for sin [required]? Or did He give a sacrifice for a peace offering [required]? a burnt offering [required], an oblation offering [required]? did He tithe the mint to Himself? it was required for the father to bring a sacrifice for his family - did he bring one for Jesus? did Jesus have to offer a sacrifice for Himself at the feasts of the Lord [required]?

    Show me some scripture that says Jesus had to keep Torah to be the sinless Lamb. thanx.
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    Again, sin is the transgression of the law. If Jesus broke the law (the Torah), then He sinned and therefore could not be the spotless and sinless Lamb of God.
     
  20. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    He touched a dead person - did not go to the temple for the ritual cleansing.

    He added to Torah.
     
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