"Scripture does not talk about it much."

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Jul 8, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    Recently our esteemed moderator claimed that hardening was not spoken of much in scripture as some kind of a defense for his inability to deal with the problems it creates for his system:



    Let's just see if that is true:

    harden
    Ex 4:21 - Show Context
    And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

    Ex 7:3 - Show Context
    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

    Ex 14:4 - Show Context
    Then I will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord." And they did so.

    Ex 14:17 - Show Context
    And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.

    De 15:7 - Show Context
    "If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother,

    Jos 11:20 - Show Context
    For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

    1Sa 6:6 - Show Context
    Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart?

    Job 38:30 - Show Context
    The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen.

    Ps 95:8 - Show Context
    "Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,

    Heb 3:8 - Show Context
    Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,

    Heb 3:15 - Show Context
    while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

    Heb 4:7 - Show Context
    again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."

    hardened
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    Ex 8:15 - Show Context
    But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

    Ex 8:32 - Show Context
    But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

    Ex 9:12 - Show Context
    But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

    Ex 9:34 - Show Context
    And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

    Ex 10:1 - Show Context
    Now the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,

    Ex 10:20 - Show Context
    But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.

    Ex 10:27 - Show Context
    But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

    Ex 11:10 - Show Context
    So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

    Ex 14:8 - Show Context
    And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness.

    De 2:30 - Show Context
    But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day.

    1Sa 6:6 - Show Context
    Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He did mighty things among them, did they not let the people go, that they might depart?

    2Ch 36:13 - Show Context
    And he also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear an oath by God; but he stiffened his neck and hardened his heart against turning to the Lord God of Israel.

    Ne 9:16 - Show Context
    "But they and our fathers acted proudly, Hardened their necks, And did not heed Your commandments.

    Ne 9:17 - Show Context
    They refused to obey, And they were not mindful of Your wonders That You did among them. But they hardened their necks, And in their rebellion They appointed a leader To return to their bondage. But You are God, Ready to pardon, Gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, Abundant in kindness, And did not forsake them.

    Job 9:4 - Show Context
    God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered?

    Isa 63:17 - Show Context
    O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance.

    Da 5:20 - Show Context
    But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him.

    Mr 6:52 - Show Context
    For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened.

    Mr 8:17 - Show Context
    But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?

    Joh 12:40 - Show Context
    "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

    Ac 19:9 - Show Context
    But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

    Heb 3:13 - Show Context
    but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

    Larry, is that what you call "not much."???

    This doesn't even include the references to hardening that don't actually use the word "harden" but use other words, like "blind," "calloused," and "deaf."

    Hmmm, if the number of times a concept mentioned in scripture is valid a reason to dismiss a scriptural doctrine then let's see what else we should blindly dismiss:

    How often is "totally depravity" mentioned? Never

    How often is the "irresistable calling" mentioned? Never (even the references to this 'irresistable calling' that Calvinists use are very vague and there are only two of them)

    And how often is "predestination" mentioned?
    3 verses.

    Larry goes on to write:
    Really? I connect it to what it describes: THE NATURE OF MAN. You don't think that has anything to do with our discussion on this board? Larry, what exactly does Totally depravity deal with if its not the nature of man?

    Scripture clearly shows that the reason people cannot believe, hear, understand, see and turn to God is directly connected to hardening (Acts 28, Mark 4, Matt. 13, John 12 etc) You say the reason people cannot believe, hear, understand, see and turn to God is directly connected to TOTALLY DEPRAVITY, which is never mentioned in the scripture.

    Are there two reasons people cannot respond? If so, why does scripture only teach one of them and not the other. Hardening is clearly laid out as the reason, Calvinists must rely upon speculation and implications to derive their reason.

    And you think this doesn't matter!!!! This only proves that you have no grasp of the real issues that have seperated these two views throughout history. It also proves that your stance is one based upon ignorance instead of knowledge. At least Calvinists who acknowledge and address these arguments as being relevant take their stand after dealing with these arguments honestly, you on the other hand, ignorantly dismiss them as being irrelevant to our discussion. I'm sorry but I can't respect that.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
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    Them there sounds like fightin' words - like a slap in the face with a glove. Is dueling still legal in any state? I'm willing to second for Pastor Larry. [​IMG]
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Brother Bill can you say...AARON BURR? [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
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    He sure ain't no Alexander Hamilton. [​IMG]
     
  5. William C

    William C
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    You two need to stay hidden behind your MUMBO JUMBO because you know YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

    That's Jack Nickelson.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH
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    Perhaps MUMBO JUMBO is preferable to your OBMUM OBMUJ. :cool:

    That's Ing.
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Brother Bill yes hardening is in the Bible no one will deny that... It's right on the surface for all to see... But the others that you do not see are those that are buried in deep truths of God!... Those ones if given light you dig out as these are spiritual treasures not see by the natural eye... Any Calvinst and Primitive can tell you that and have burned the candle at both ends and the midnight oil unearthing them. These truths come from much digging out of the truths of God... The treasures of God!... These are Bible truths not Primitive or Calvinist inventions of man!... Am I right my fellow yoke brethren?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  8. William C

    William C
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    Ken, are you still relying upon content free one-liners? That get's old, how about we deal with the issues that make up this forum? If you want to play games and make jokes they have a humor forum you can camp out in for while.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH
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    Oh, I'm sorry. I was reading your posts and I thought that's where I was. A thousand pardons, dear sir. [​IMG]


    Sometimes I just kill me. [​IMG]

    That's ALF. [​IMG]
     
  10. William C

    William C
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    Oh, I sure hope I can get as smart and learned as you so that I too can understand these hidden buried treasures that the majority of us unlearned Christians can't unearth. Oh, how can I be like you Glen and get smart enough to understand that predestination stuff? I just don't think my little fimble mind can grasp it like yours. I must not study enough, I've got to work harder, stay up later, and think deeper thoughts.
    :rolleyes:

    give me a break!
     
  11. William C

    William C
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    Keep hiding Ken, that's obviously where you do your best work. :rolleyes:
     
  12. KenH

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    This hardening business is your hobby horse, Brother Bill. Why don't you publish a tome on the subject and then we can use it as a basis for debate with all of your arguments and reasonings clearly spelled out over 1000 pages? You just give bits and pieces of your overall logic in this forum. We need the whole shebang to properly debate the issue. [​IMG]
     
  13. William C

    William C
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    Ken, I could just as easily say to any of you that Predestination is your hobby horse and all you do is give bits and pieces here on this forum.

    why don't you explain to me how hardening works within your system.
     
  14. KenH

    KenH
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    If one continuously and by consistent practice ignores his conscience, his heart becomes hard and what should help in keeping him on the path of righteousness ceases to perform that function.
     
  15. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Check out Gen. 38, then 2 Sam. 11 along with Matt. 1. See if you note a similarity.

    Pharez/Zarah

    Pharez--breach/division
    Zarah--light/dawning


    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  16. Scott J

    Scott J
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    Good illustration... especially considering which side of truth the good LTC Jessup was on. :D :D
     
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Brother Bill... You are getting your Theology mixed up with your Movieology!... Brother Glen is going to take a much needed extended break... I need a vacation... After almost two years here... I definately need a vacation!... Pastor Larry hold down the fort... I'm taking a cruise and finding my life again!... You know what a fisherman uses to catch the fish?... De Bait!... Have at it brethren!... Later!... Much later!... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Brother Bill is right on this issue of "hardening", It worked on you! You are so hardened that you cannot see the truth.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    All of you quit acting like a bunch of kids. There is no need to stoop to personal attacks.

    Bill has shown he can work a concordance and attack my supposed ignorance. What he has not shown is that he has given much thought to the real issues here. The fact remains that all the verses he listed give very little information about hardening, so he has proved my point. When you consider the vast amount of Scripture and put that up against the small amount he lists, we see that Scripture talks about it very little. What is worse for Bill is that Scripture never talks about it in the way that Bill would like for it to. I do not deny that hardening exists. I believe it. But I deny that Bill has properly applied Scripture's teaching on it.

    As I have said before, Bill is out on his own here. It appears that no one in theology is talking about this much. Bill will provide no support that we can actually go and look at for someone who makes sense about this. I have asked time and time again and he refuses. He rather posts lengthy posts of his own thinking.

    Bill has not shown any reason why total depravity should be rejected. It is clearly taught in Scripture, as is the effectual calling. We are different from Bill in that we do not ignore that hardening is taught; we merely teach about it what Scripture does.

    Now for the rest of this thread, this serves as the final warning. Clean it up. There is to be no personal comments made. There will be no exceptions. The topic is hardening and you can discuss that if you wish. Any violations will result in editing and closure if necessary.
     
  20. Sola-Scriptura

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    Brother bill,
    Are you saying that because it says "hardened" then the implication is that the lost, before they were hardened, had a "soft" workable and upright heart and able to obey God? That is not scriptural, my friend. Notice who sovereignly does the hardening in many of those verses--God himself, but scripture is clear that man is ultimately responsible for this hardness in Adam. (Rom 5) This is total depravity! Adam introduced and passed this hardness to all of us. In salvation, God takes away the hardness that has always been there.
    Ezekiel 36:26
    I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
    2 Corinthians 3:2-3
    You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
     

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