Scripture question please

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MrCorey, Oct 18, 2007.

  1. MrCorey

    MrCorey
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    Hi;

    I'm not sure if I'm in the correct forum. But I am wondering if somebody can answer my questions. What I am looking for is not just "you know in your heart" because that to me is saying feelings and feelings are fickle. I need more than "feelings" for an answer.



    Chosen by God
    The idea of election goes back to Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3). God chose to make a nation of that patriarch’s descendants. He chose Israel to be his people. He worked his purposes out through that one nation and in due course sent his Messiah as a Jew. After that, God continued to choose, or elect, people in accordance with his purpose (Rom. 9:11), grace (Rom. 11:5), love (1 Thess. 1:4), and foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2). The “elect” can rely on God’s concern for them (Luke 18:7) and on their sure salvation (Rom. 8:33). They are to live lives befitting their status (Col. 3:12-14). Mystery is inherent in the concept of election, because we also know that God desires the salvation of all persons (1 Tim. 2:4).
    Source unknown



    Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
    Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
    Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
    Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
    Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
    Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


    How does a person know if God hates them or if He loves them?

    In other words, Did Esau know God hated him?

    Thank you for any help and if I'm in the wrong place, I'm sorry.

    corey
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    The question you ask is common, but IMO nearly impossible to answer. Any answer is merely speculation/hypothetical. I am not trying to squalch honest inquirey, but perhaps the question is better served by re-directing it.

    Can the non-elect know they are non-elect? What does the Scripture say? It says to unbelievers to repent and believe the Gospel. It warns them of destruction if they do not, and promises eternal life and forgiveness of sins if they do.

    Election and predestination regard the secret counsel of Almighty God and we all do well not to go beyond the Scriptures. If we find that we have been born of God, we know from Scripture that the reason had nothing to do with our efforts, will, goodness, et. It had everything to do with God's unconditional love and mercy. When the Christian realizes this it results in gratitude and praise.

    RB
     
  3. BrotherJames

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    This is a HORRIBLE place to dwell if you're new in faith. God doesn't choose people to salvation, He wasn't a Calvinist. The reason why God chose Jacob to be the seed of his people is because He knew Esau was going to be a fornicator and a profane person. Would you want Gods seed to come from Esau? NO! He hates Esau lifestyle, and the way he lived. 1st Samuel 16:7 states God looks in the heart of man, so he knew how Esau was going to be, so he has his younger brother rule over him because he was spiritually, and he knew he would trust in the coming Messiah
     
  4. MrCorey

    MrCorey
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    Thank you RB;

    I appreciate it. Listen, I'm not looking for a theological debate because I would loose. I am sincerely just seeking some answers. So, I'm going to try to put another question to you.


    Does it make sense if a person has "head knowledge" and they are not saved? And if so, how does one get beyond "head knowledge"? In other words, what if that person feels that he has no heart. How can he get his knowledge from his head into his heart?

    Is the whole idea really in knowing and believing what you know? Or how does that work? I mean, can you be saved intellectually?

    I think I'm trying to ask this. If you believe what you've learned, and you practice what you've learned, but you do not feel it in your chest, does that mean you're not saved?

    Can a non-Christian have enough knowledge and desire to lead others to Christ?
     
  5. Amy.G

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    Have you forgotten that Jacob was a liar and a deceiver?? He was also not the first born.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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    That's a great question. In fact, I recently addressed it on my wife's facebook page when she asked "Who is Christ" to folks. My question was, how is it that we answer? Jesus asked a similar question to His disciples:

    "And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am? 28And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. " Mark 8:27-28

    Then He asked them, "But whom say ye that I am?" v.29. Now, we can read the rest of verse 29 to find the correct answer, but wouldn't that be like answering who men say that He is? Peter says He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. But how did Peter know this?

    "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt 16:17

    This is the diffence between true saving faith and intellectual knowledge. Peter had been taught of the Father and so is everyone who is a true Christian.

    "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:45
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    You must have a pretty hard time with this verse then:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" 2 Thess 2:13
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Then, explain these:

    1. a. Romans 8:29-30 (Holman's Bible)[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. [/FONT] And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified. b. KJV

    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whomhe called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    [/FONT][/FONT]



    2. a. King James Version (Ephesians 1:1-6



    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


    b. Holmans Bible


    1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God's will: To the saints and believers in Christ Jesus at Ephesus. 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, in Christ; 4 for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.
     
  9. npetreley

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    Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
     
  10. npetreley

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    Here we go again, eh?
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    I just find it amazing how we can sometimes come to a belief and make a statement where the exact opposite statement is found in Scripture! Such is the case with all of us I think. May the Lord help us grow.
     
  12. Joe

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    Calvanism is discouraging. Who is the elect and non-elect, I just stay far from it. Other religions don't obsess and argue over this stuff
     
  13. ReformedBaptist

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    Then you are ignoring Scripture my friend.
     
  14. Joe

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    Ok maybe so. I'll get to it when I am ready
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    I understand brother. God bless!
     
  16. MrCorey

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    Ok, thank you. First, I'm not questioning Predestination, I don't have a problem with that. I know off the top of my head, somewhere in the Bible it says He has chosen them before the foundations of the world. Or something close to that.


    Anyway, what I just quoted from you leads me to ask you another question. How do you get taught of the Father? Or how do you know if you're taught of the Father? I don't quite understand what you are saying.

    Again, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to argue, but to understand.
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    Great questions brother, and I dont' think you are trying to argue. Hopefully I am not coming accross that way. I think it would make sense to look at the verses I mentioned before in their context. How do we know we have been taught by the Father? Is the person coming to Jesus? Are they confessing their sins? Are the sensible to them and know they need a Saviour? Are they calling on the Name of the Lord to be saved knowing only Christ can save them?

    If you see a man under this conviction I think we can reasonably conclude they are being drawn and taught of the Father. This is what happened to me, and then I was born again. When I was born again, immediately I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. And there was a noticable change. The one who is born of God does not love sin like he used to you. He now is ashamed of what he once praised and practiced. Sin is the trade-skill of a sinner. But righteousness is the trade-skill of a saint (even though they sometimes sin).

    If we have repented of our sins, and believed on (not believed about, but trust in) Christ Jesus, these are the elect of God. If a Christian man desires assurance then he should make his calling and election sure. Consider the following Scriptures:

    Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:2-11

    Notice this is not about salvation, being saved. It's about sanctification and assurance in the Christian life. God's power has given us (grace) all things for life and godliness. But if we doubt we may even feel condemned as sinners. Such a one may have neglected his spiritual life in Christ and become shortisighted, but never lost.
     
  18. BrotherJames

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    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Salvation/toc.htm
     
  19. webdog

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    First, in context, Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with Israel as a nation, not individuals for salvation.

    Second, Scripture tells us the "God so loved the kosmos..."
    If you are in the kosmos...God loves you :)
     
  20. TCGreek

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    Maybe you'll never turn out to be a CS Lewis, in his classic Surprised by Joy, but as long as you call upon the Lord, our theological differences won't matter in light of eternity.
     

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