Scriptures Calvinists must deal with, continued...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alive in Christ, Apr 22, 2011.

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  1. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    The other thread reached its limit and was closed.

    Luke...

    You have it completely wrong. It has nothing to do with certain people being "better". Its the lost who have the "I'm a good enough person, I think I'll be good enough to make it" mentality.

    We who embrace Christ do so because we recognize our depravity and sinfullness. Christ died to pay the penalty for every sin ever commited, or will be commited.

    Gods saving gosple if justification through faith alone. NOT for just the "lucky ones" that God supposedly "elects", but rather for the "who soever wills"

    As I understand "arminianism" it is what I just articulated, and NOT the erronious view that you articulated.

    It has nothing to do with being better. It has to do with recieving Gods mercy.

    Yes. Luke, Christ is the one who said...

    No. I came to Christ because I knew that I was an "undone" lost , wreched person. A sinner.

    No, no no.

    I came to Christ because I was wretched.

    No. I came to Christ because I knew that I was wretched, and undone.

    Because God gives every person who ever lives the opportunity to turn from sin, and pridefull self sufficientcy, and turn to Gods provision, found in Christ.

    How can a wreched man be better than others?

    You are erecting a strawman.
     
  2. webdog

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    I also never got a chance to respond to Luke's "I'm a mess" comment when I asked him to provide where WHOLE WORLD was intended in any of John's letters to mean anything but all sinful mankind. He retorted the 2011 NIV rendering of John 12:19 which adds "whole", which is NOT accurate in the least!
    οἱ οὖν Φαρισαῖοι εἶπαν πρὸς ἑαυτούς· θεωρεῖτε ὅτι οὐκ ὠφελεῖτε οὐδέν· ἴδε κόσμος ὀπίσω αὐτοῦ ἀπῆλθεν.
    KJV with Strong's
    The Pharisees therefore said among themselves Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing __ behold the world is gone after him

    John used the exact phrase "whole world" 4 times in his letters, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 16:14. This was NOT one of them, and was a poor rendering by the updated NIV that the greek does not support, nor do formal equivalence translations support like the ESV, NASB, NKJV, KJV, etc.

    Nice try Luke...but try again, this time try leaving the insults out. I know it's difficult, but I would think it shouldn't be that tough for a pastor.
     
  3. Alive in Christ

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    Iconoclast....

    I said....

    And you responded....


    It most certainly is true.

    God says different than you, and I choose to believe Gods testimony over your testimony.

    God says that He...

    "...gives Light (spiritual revelation) to every single person who comes into the world."

    And its not just the John 1:9 passage either. Many many passages support that truth.



    Thats true regarding those of us who have the scriptures. But millions never had the scriptures, or the testimony of missionaries.

    Your attitude to that seems to be...."too bad for them, tough break."

    My attitude is the scriptures....

    John 1:9:..
    (The wonderfull Amplified Bible makes it quite clear.)...


    (And all of those in heaven now because of that revelation joyfully disagree with you, as well.) :thumbs:

    When its the word of God we are dealing with, only a lost man, or satan, would be a "trickster"

    I'm a strait shooter

    AiC
     
    #3 Alive in Christ, Apr 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2011
  4. Luke2427

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    Then you are better because you are not as self-righteous as the lost.

    You are going to heaven because you are more humble than the lost who are going to hell.

    Therefore, you are better than the lost.

    That is what you are left with.

    The folks who are wise enough to humble themselves rather than trust in their own righteousness are going to heaven.

    Those who for whatever reason LACK that wisdom and humility are going to hell.

    Since humility is BETTER than self-righteousness those who are going to heaven are simply BETTER than those who are going to hell.


    That is what you believe.


    Who receives it?

    Those who are wise enough to humble themselves.

    That wisdom makes them better than those who lack that wisdom.

    So you are better than BILLIONS of the damned because you are more humble and more wise than them.

    You are going to heaven because you are BETTER.

    Do you deny that being humble and wise is BETTER than being self-righteous and foolish??



    Ding, ding, ding, ding!

    There it is.

    You came to Christ because you KNEW something.

    Is that not what I have been saying?

    You are wiser than all the billions who will roast in hell.

    Those poor stupid people. If ONLY they knew what YOU knew!!

    But the wise go to heaven and the fools go to hell.

    And in that scheme God most certainly IS a respecter of persons.

    He saves the wise and damns the foolish.

    He respects those who are wiser and more humble- in a word, they are simply BETTER.


    NO, no. EVERYBODY'S wretched. Not all of them come to Christ.

    You came to Christ because you were wiser than your wretched fellows. You came to Christ because you were more humble than your wretched fellows.

    You are going to heaven, NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE MORALLY BETTER- no, no.

    You are going to heaven because you are MENTALLY better.


    There it is again!



    But only those as wise and humble as YOU turn from those things.

    How does it feel to be better (mentally not morally) than billions upon billions upon billions of your fellow man? In fact you are better than the VAST majority of the human race!!!

    WOW!!!

    That is something to BOAST ABOUT!!!
     
  5. Luke2427

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    You first. You are the most smug and insulting person I have ever conversed with.

    I'll stop pointing out your faults the moment you stop being a smart alek.

    Now, as to your references.

    I John 5:19
    American Standard Version
    We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.

    Does every single person on earth lie IN the wicked one??
    Are not the saints DELIVERED from the power of the Evil One???

    Yea, indeed, by this point many THOUSANDS did not lie in the power of the wicked one.

    Not to mention all the millions upon million of children who according to you are innocent.

    So no. John most CERTAINLY did not use whole world to refer to every single person in that instance.

    NOBODY with half a brain interprets it to mean every single person on earth, imo.

    Revelation 12:9

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    Does he indeed deceive the every single person on earth????????

    OF COURSE NOT!!

    NO reputable commentary that was not simply obsessed with supporting Arminianism would say otherwise.

    He does not deceive the saints. John said that they could not BE DECEIVED!

    So once again John does not use "whole world" to refer to every single person on earth. He sure as heck-fire does not use it to mean every single person on earth of all ages since the world began and to it's end!

    Revelation 16:14 has NOTHING at ALL to do with every single person on earth but LITERALLY means all over the earth.

    And I John 2:2 does not mean every single person either.

    Try again.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    AIc
    Jn 1:9 is a great verse, but you are trying to make it do more than it is meant to do...
    AIC.....you have no scriptural warrant to declare that there are two ways of salvation......those who are exposed to scripture are at a disadvantage ?
    These people who have never heard of Jesus, the law of God, who are worshipping Devils ...some how get a saving knowledge revealed to them?? They did not even know the incarnation took place....but in some special way they get Revelation of salvation?
    Maybe the virgin Mary told them? like the little girls in Lourdes France?
    You are offering superstition here, mis-using that verse.

    You keep repeating this mantra....
    Could you show me from my posts where this is my attitude? Could you post where I said this, or what gave you that impression, because that is not what my attitude is!

    Also...I asked in the other thread just so I can see your thought process...what do you make of this command..I would like you to respond to this in light of your "scriptural ?' understanding of Jn1:9

    How does that verse fit with this command from God?
    How does this command here square with your view of God giving every man this special revelation? How about these infants and sucklings? what special revelation came to them, before the sword?

    AIC...it is one thing to pull out one verse and claim it says or means something, but it cannot contradict something else in scripture.
    Take your time and explain how these things are reconciled in your understanding of the verse.

    Missionaries go to the lost because without the word they perish for sure.
     
  7. DHK

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    Let's look at some of your theology here and see what conclusions one can come to.

    First you say that Scripture like John 3:16 and 1John 2:2 do not refer to all the world or all people.
    Therefore, one could question, how would we know that those verses would include you, seeing that they don't include all people. How do you know that you are in the select group that they do include? What guarantee do you have?

    "The world" as you define it, what is it? The world of the time of Christ and his locality? That would definitely exclude you for you live 2,000 years later. Then what is the "world" that Christ died for? Who are the all the people that Christ made an atonement for in 1John 2:2? If they were just those in Christ's world then that excludes you. Other than that you would have to define "the sins of the whole world," as the sins of all people of all generations in all the world. If it isn't you don't have any guarantee of being saved. How do you know that the definition of "world" is included in Christ's definition since you say it is a very narrow definition.

    Salvation is all of God. I agree with that, but not defined in the same way that you do.
    Salvation is Christo-centric. I agree with that, but not in the same way that you do.

    God gave us free will: to choose Christ or to reject him. If he didn't just how did you come to Christ? Did you mystically come to some gnostic idea that somehow you were one of the elect without having to put your faith in Christ, simply because of your belief that "salvation is all of God"?
    Or, because you think that putting your "faith" in Christ is an act of man and therefore a "work" of man, making salvation man-centered instead of Christ-centered?
    How do you deny all the "whosoever's," If thou shalt call," "believe..." etc., verses in the Bible, those verses that command us to choose to put our faith in Christ or to reject him. Salvation is a choice. We are not forced into it by election.

    How do you know that you are one of the elect?
     
  8. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  9. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. Alive in Christ

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    Brother Luke...

    I said...

    And you responded...

    No. Not at all. I am simply coming to grips with my sinful situation, which is hopeless, and then taking Christ up on His offer, to come to Him to be saved. I am at a loss as to how you could some how turn that into my thinking I am BETTER than others???

    Your kidding, right? I mean you've got to be kidding.

    You're not kidding :eek:

    Luke, honestly, you are really REEEEEALY reaching here, brother. Whats up is actually down, ...whats down is up...whats true is false, and whats false is true.

    Bzzz. (((FAIL)))


    Bzzz (((FAIL))) again.

    Luke, I really am having trouble understanding why this so confusing for you. Its really not that complicated.

    Aic
     
  11. Alive in Christ

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    Iconaclast...

    Thats correct. And that is the reason that I have never advocacated that there are 2 ways of salvation. There is but one way...faith in Christ.

    Why, thats nonsense.

    PRECISELY! I think you are finally getting it. :thumbs:

    God says He "enlightens" every man who comes into the world. If they are outside of the gospel wittness in the usual way, they will be given revelation that they can understand and heed...or refuse. And remember,

    God said it...not me.

    No. No chance. She is not God.

    A ridiculous thought.

    Have you forgotten...God said it, not me.

    I said...

    And you said...


    I dont have the time to post them all. Every time that you have said that there is no saving revelation for the millions who lived their entire lifetime outside of the verbal or written gosple, you are clearly adovocating that they are simply damned to hell, because of location.

    If thats not "tough luck for them"...I'd like to know what is.

    You posted this...

    And then asked me this...


    God is God, and at *specific times* He choose's..for His own reasons..to make exceptions to the norm. He has that right. There are other instances like that, and I trust God completly, that for whatever reason, it was the righteous thing to do.

    That is completely different than the consistant, overwhelming inequity and total ungodly ramifications that exist in hard core calvinism.

    AiC
     
    #11 Alive in Christ, Apr 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2011
  12. Luke2427

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    You did it when they did not.

    You did it because you are wiser or less self-righteous.

    Since humility and wisdom are better than self-righteousness and foolishness- then you are better.

    How can you not understand this??

    Is wisdom not better than foolishness?

    Is humility not BETTER than self-righteousness.

    You are going to heaven because you are better in these ways: you are wiser and more humble.

    Congratulations on being better than the vast majority of the human race!



    The rest of this is bull and not worth responding to.
     
  13. Luke2427

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    I have been abundantly clear about how "world" is usually used.

    It almost NEVER means every single person and ANY INTELLIGENT person KNOWS it.

    The WHOLE WORLD knows that when you use the words "whole world" that is almost NEVER refers to every single person.

    You abuse the Scriptures to support your new nameless theology that you made up.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Off topic a tad but I'm very proud of my brother who paid me a visit last night to inform me that he has switched his theology from his old indoctrinated Arminism to Calvinism. He is an IFB man and has been persuaded through fervent study of the Gospel that it is indeed biblical & true. My heart leapt upon hearing the good news. Praise God!:godisgood:
     
  15. Skandelon

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    Why can't he congratulate you for God making you better than the vast majority of the human race? Same difference.

    Whether God effectually made you humble (which the bible never says) or you humble yourself (which is what the bible tells us to do) there is still congratulations in order and boasting possible, assuming of course, that someone would boast in their failures and complete brokenness.

    Luke 18:9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt : 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself : 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people : swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 'I fast twice a week ; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner !' 14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other ; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

    "HUMBLE HIMSELF" not "HUMBLED EFFECTUALLY BY GOD"
     
  16. Luke2427

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    Because that would be silly.

    In my theology GOD is the one doing the making.

    He'd have to congratulate GOD. Which sounds a whole lot like giving him glory- which would be fine with me!
     
  17. InTheLight

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    [​IMG]

    Ha ha ha ha ha! Thanks for that....<wipes tear from eye from laughing so hard>
     
  18. Luke2427

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    That IS good news.

    Spurgeon said it was like being saved all over again.
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Bingo, just like it would be silly for us to boast in our humble broken wretched selves. Whether we humble ourselves (as the scripture clearly tells us to do) or God supernaturally and effectually makes us humble, this accusation is silly.

    Here is a verse a Calvinistic author would have NEVER written:

    Jeremiah 9:24
    but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth ; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD.


    I guess that explains why God says on the final day, "Well done me, enter into the kingdom prepared for you." Oh wait...that is not what he says, He says, "Well done good and faithful servant...". It's just like God to be so humble and give us the credit for something He alone did. ;)
     
  20. Luke2427

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    Your off topic.

    The point here is that in your system, which thank God you actually have, you have men who are humbler and wiser going to heaven and men who are prouder and more foolish going to hell.

    It's truly as simple as that.

    Those humble enough to choose Christ go to heaven.

    Those who for whatever reason lack that humility (they must be less depraved) go to hell.

    Since humility is better than arrogance- the best of us go to heaven and the worst of us go to hell.

    So you can congratulate yourself on being better than 90% of the adult human race!

    Oh No! That is a wonderful verse!

    The question is this. Where did he get that glorious knowledge of God and for what reason do others NOT have it?

    Your answer must be this. Because he is more humble than his fellows.

    Pin a rose on his nose!

    It really is. That is a good point.

    Then we will lay those rewards at his feet and praise him who alone is worthy.
     
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