Scriptures that appear to Teach against limited Atonement ! -

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, May 21, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Those who oppose the scripture truth of limited or particular atonement, that is , Christ died only to save some of mankind as opposed to His death being a provision for all mankind as an opportunity for them to be saved, contingent upon them, their Faith, or their repentance or their water baptism, and ect, whatever it maybe, they do not believe that Christ cross work saves alone, in and of itself.

    When I say cross work, that includes, His Obedient Life, His death, burial, and resurrection and His present ascension on the right Hand of His Father with all power given in His Hand, and having received of the Father the Holy Spirit of promise to apply His saving benefits to each chosen vessel of mercy He died for, hence accomplishing their full salvation with Eternal Glory.

    The first scripture text we will look at is 1 Tim 4:10

    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    The word Saviour is the greek word Soter and means:

    saviour, deliverer, preserver

    Now, there is a sense by which God, the Living God is the Saviour of all men without exception in that He is our providential preserver, all creatures exist for God's purposes and we are preserved[in a providential way] until such purposes have been fulfilled.

    Scriptures that denote this: Neh 9:6

    Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

    You see, God gives us life physical and preserves it, maintains it. All creatures are dependent upon God even for their natural lives.

    Job 7:10

    I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

    Acts 17:24-25


    24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

    God giving life to all, thats part of preserving them, being their Saviour.

    Now, in this manner, the Living God is the Saviour to all men without exception, giving them their due rain and sunshine, unto the Just and Unjust. as it reads:

    Matt 5:45

    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
     
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scriptures that appear to Teach against limited Atonement ! -



    So as we continue to look at 1 tim 4:10, we have seen that God in a very general and providential manner is the Saviour/ Preserver of all men without exception, that is saved and unsaved.

    But then He ad's another comment, especially to them that believe. The word especially is the greek word malista:


    especially, chiefly, most of all, above all

    Now some say other translations of the greek have the word "namely" as to say:

    10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, namely of those that believe.

    Also, if we study the word chiefly, one of its meanings is particularly or even specifically.

    So the the text could read without violation of the word malista :

    10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specifically or particularly of those that believe.

    This of course would confirm particular atonement !

    So the word malista,appears to be a word or expression to clarify what is being said, so that the proper ideal may be conveyed.

    Because if the ideal of all men without exception had the Living God as a Saviour, why add the clarifying remark, let the statement stand alone as like:

    10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men.

    But Paul does not write it like that, he being guided by the Holy Ghost to add that additional comment.

    Now, even though I agree that God in a providential manner is the Saviour of all men without exception, this is not what Paul is referring to in this context.

    This context has to do with His Spiritual Labor in the Gospel and those things He endures in that regard:

    The Labor and suffering reproach is for the ministry sake . 1 pet 4:


    14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

    The word labor is used in conjunction with His ministerial efforts 1 cor 15:

    10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

    gal 4:

    11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

    And so He says they Trust in the Living God who is the Saviour all men, both jew and gentile.

    See, Paul's primary call and choice was for the ministry unto the gentiles, and so He Trusted God in that, He knew it was God's purpose that gentiles would now Trust in God or in Christ Matt 12:

    18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    19He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

    20A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

    21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    And for that cause, Paul suffered reproach and labored Knowing that God in Christ is the Saviour of not just the jews, but all men.

    A Saviour saves, not make it possible. Jesus saves from and out of death. How can you merely make it possible for a dead person to be saved out of or from death, they have to me made alive. Its ridiculous to even think that one Has a Saviour from sin and still dies in their sins So, I cannot see how 1 tim 4 10 teaches against particular atonement, in fact, it confirms it..
     
  3. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Judas I. was not regenerate because "the Bible tells us so." He and a couple of others are the exception that makes the rule . . . "atoned for" is probablt the null case.
     
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    If a Man stops by the flower Shop and purchases some flowers for His wife, and He writes on the card, Honey, these are especially for you, does that mean that they were also in a lesser degree for someone else too, but they are just especially for her ? Of course not, that would be none sense, they were especially for her, and only for her..
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 1:29



    John 1:

    29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    This is the testimony of the scripture and John the baptist, that the Lamb of God taketh away the sin of the world. If the world here meant every single person without exception, that all have had their sins taken away, then why are not all without exception saved and made new creatures ?

    Many will say , because of unbelief, but unbelief is a sin. Its a sin like others that are excluded from the kingdom and will have its part in the lake of fire Rev 21:8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    How therefore can a man die of unbelief if Jesus has taken away His sins ? You may as well say one was healed, but yet will die of cancer ! To say that Christ stripes alone healed them He died for as per 1pet 2:

    24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    And then yet one who has been healed will be cast into the lake of fire for unbelief is the same as one being healed of all their diseases and then dying of cancer.. So Jn 1:29 cannot mean every sinner without exception, its talking about the scope of redemption, that its universal, and not limited to national israel.
     
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    2 Cor 5:19 -



    2 Cor 5:

    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Note: This is the same world as Jn 1:29 !

    God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself [This is a reconciled world] Now those who believe a lie, think that the world here includes all mankind without exception, but the next statement in the verse limits the word world [kosmos] to God's Elect or called and Chosen by the words Their and Them .

    Now understand here, when this reconciliation took place Their Trespasses were not counted or charged against them, because Jesus having them charged to Him, paid for them in full. A comparison verse pertaining to those having not charges laid against them is Rom 8:

    33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    It is God's elect that has not their trespasses imputed unto them, because it is Christ that died for them.

    So this text proves that world is limited to certain ones in the world, the elect or called of God.

    Let it be known also, that the word world in scripture can mean:

    any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

    So for instance, the collection of all the Sheep, is a world, The collection of all the Church or called out ones is a world.

    The collection of all the[spiritual] seed of Abraham from among the jews and gentiles is a world. The collection of particulars !

    The word particular means :

    Of, belonging to, or associated with a specific person, group, thing, or category; not general or universal: has a particular preference for Chinese art. Separate and distinct from others of the...
     
  7. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    No way around this one...

    But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
     
  8. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    ?If a Man stops by the flower Shop and purchases some flowers for His wife

    Say again? If a man endowed a piece of public art because it pleased his wife . . . .
     
  9. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who benefits when a funeral notice states, "In lieu of flowers please donate to (whatever)?"
     
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Tim 2:4



    Another scripture that appears to Teach against limited atonement but does not is 1 Tim 2:

    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Does this scripture teach that God desires all men without exception or is it that God desires all men without distinction to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth.

    The word for will is the greek word thelo and means:

    to will, have in mind, intend

    a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

    b) to desire, to wish

    c) to love

    1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

    d) to take delight in, have pleasure

    So God determines, purposes to save all men in view, its His wish or desire, His pleasure.

    In that case we should know that it cannot have reference to everyone without exception for the simple fact that whatever God desires, wants, determines and purposes, That He does or performs, notice Job 23:

    13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

    14For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

    Ps 115:

    3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    Notice here, God has done whatsoever He hath pleased. The word pleased here is the Hebrew word chaphets and means:

    to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with

    a) (Qal)

    1) of men

    a) to take pleasure in, delight in

    b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do

    2) of God

    a) to delight in, have pleasure in

    b) to be pleased to do

    Its the same as the greek word thelo in 1 Tim 2:4 To take delight in, have pleasure in.

    And that which is such the case, He does it, He performs it, He brings it about..

    So if God Almighty desired all without exception to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, He shall bring it about !
     
  11. Jerome

    Jerome
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,624
    Likes Received:
    45
    Charles Spurgeon, on the shenanigans some Calvinism enthusiasts undertake when the pesky Scriptures just don't line up with their "grand theory":

    [I Tim. 2:4]

    "What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself, for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."" —"Salvation By Knowing the Truth"
     
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have already read spurgeons comments on that verse, and he is wrong. I am going to show why in these next posts, the first one should have been enough however.
     
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Tim 2:4 cont



    Also coming into the Knowledge of the Truth is an act of Divine Sovereignty, the Knowledge here is The Gospel, the Word of Truth Eph 1:13

    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Col 1:5

    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

    God gives Knowledge of Salvation to His People Lk 1:

    77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    God by an act of Divine Fiat shines the Saving Knowledge into our Hearts 2 Cor 4:

    5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

    6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    So if God desired all men without exception to be saved and come into a Knowledge of the Truth as 1 Tim 2:4 points out, then He would command it so, by giving them the Light of the Gospel in their hearts, not just in their heads, for its as easy as Him saying "Let there be Light" and Gospel Light would dispel our darkness.

    Notice the picture paul uses to make this point. Lets look at Gen 1:

    1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    You see, Giving Light is up to God's will and power, its not an offer, but an arbitrary act of His Divine Will to accomplish His Purpose.

    And giving Spiritual Knowledge through the Gospel is up to God's Sovereign Purpose. For its not God's will that all men without exception have this Knowledge Matt 13:

    10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

    11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    The Mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven is another name for The Gospel..

    Mark calls them that don't receive this saving Knowledge as those which are without Mark 4:11

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

    Those who are not counted in the number of God's elect, they do not receive a Saving Knowledge of the Truth..and we can be certain that God is not desiring that they should !
     
  14. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    0
    Context is a very important matter. Here is how Spurgeon introduced the part you quoted:

    It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.

    We all know that Spurgeon preached several sermons defending limited atonement. I have those sermons on my shelf and can easily present them if called upon to prove it. Spurgeon's position here is not incompatible to limited atonement but very capatable. He makes a distinction between will of purpose and revealed will of desire and then following the partial quotation you made he says this:

    Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"If God be infinitely good and powerful, why does not his power carry out to the full all his beneficence?" It is God's wish that the oppressed should go free, yet there are many oppressed who are not free. It is God's wish that the sick should not suffer. Do you doubt it? Is it not your own wish? And yet the Lord does not work a miracle to heal every sick person. It is God's wish that his creatures should be happy. Do you deny that? He does not interpose by any miraculous agency to make us all happy, and yet it would be wicked to suppose that he does not wish the happiness of all the creatures that he has made. He has an infinite benevolence which, nevertheless, is not in all points worked out by his infinite omnipotence; and if anybody asked me why it is not, I cannot tell. I have never set up to be an explainer of all difficulties, and I have no desire to do so. It is the same old question as that of the negro who said, "Sare, you say the devil makes sin in the world." "Yes, the devil makes a deal of sin." "And you say that God hates sin." "Yes." "Then why does not he kill the devil and put an end to it?" Just so. Why does he not? Ah, my black friend, you will grow white before that question is answered. I cannot tell you why God permits moral evil, neither can the ablest philosopher on earth, nor the highest angel in heaven.

    You who attempt to quote Spurgeon to disprove the doctrines of Grace are simply jerking his words out of their context as Spurgeon defended the doctrine of grace in so much that his defense was involved iin what was famously called "The Downgrade Controversy."

    I have on my shelf a complete book of sermons by Spurgeon defending all five points. His words you take out of context are consistent with his defense and his view of limited atonement but very inconsistent with universal atonement IF he is interpreted by his own context.

     
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Tim 2:4 cont



    Since saving Knowledge of the Truth is Sovereignly given to God's People Lk 1:


    77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, see 1 Tim 2:4

    We should know this scripture is not meaning that God desires or wills the salvation of all men without exception and that they come into the knowledge of the Truth, because He did not choose all men without exception, if He did, the end of result would be this 2 Thess 2:

    13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    God's Sovereign Choice of one to Salvation always results in Two things

    #1. Sanctification of the Spirit, which is New Birth and #2 Belief of the Truth,

    So all those men that God desires to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth, will according to that same will be regenerated by the Spirit and believe the Gospel of Truth. James 1 says in vs

    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    This is the same Truth referred to in 1 Tim 2:4..

    Also, we know it cannot be God's will for all men without exception to come into the Knowledge of the Truth, because God is so pleased that many believe a lie, those of which He himself sends a strong delusion 2 Thess 2:

    10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    This is in contrast to those He chose to salvation through sanctification [regeneration] of the Spirit and belief of the Truth vs 13..
     
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Tim 2:4 cont



    So what does paul mean in 1 Tim 2:4 ? This can be only understood as he was a New Covenant Minister of the Gospel 2 Cor 3:

    5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    And as such he was appointed a minister of the new covenant not to the jews, but unto the gentiles 1 Tim 2:6-7


    6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    This also lets us know that the gentiles were to be recipients of the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34.

    Now with this in mind, he recognized Christ as the Mediator 1 Tim 2:5, this would be the Mediator of the New Covenant Heb 8:6,8. So it would be a mistake to view His mediator office in 1 Tim 2:5 as different from His mediator office in Heb 8:6-8; 12:24.

    The All men God desires to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth are the all men to whom the Spirit will apply the New Covenant transactions and blessings unto, the Spiritual Israel, the Spiritual Judah, which are comprised of all men without distinction. So God desired for these all men without distinction, what the New Covenant Promises to bestow upon them, Namely Salvation and a Saving Knowledge Heb 8:10-11


    10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    God Promised to bestow Salvation by a spiritual working inwardly, which is regeneration Titus 3:5 which is a saving work, and saving knowledge of Himself vs 11 " They shall all know me" That is in a saving and spiritual way, through the Gospel, and thats what God willed and desired in 1 Tim 2:4
     
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Tim 2:4 cont



    So Christ New Covenant Blood of which He is Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 accomplished the will and desire of His Father; Through His work upon the cross, all the men He [God] wants and desires to be saved and to come into the Knowledge of the Truth, Christ has or will deliver or fulfill His Fathers wish or will, thats why its written in Isa 53:10

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    This word pleasure is the hebrew word chephets and means:


    delight, pleasure

    a) delight

    b) desire, longing

    c) the good pleasure

    d) that in which one takes delight

    Notice, that the desire of the LORD shall Prosper in His hand.

    The word prosper means :

    to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable

    to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper

    It means to " To be effected " as in 2 Chron 7:11

    11Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD, and the king's house: and all that came into Solomon's heart to make in the house of the LORD, and in his own house, he prosperously effected.

    So lets see what we have here. Based upon His bruising, which signifies His death, this Servant of the LORD shall rise from the dead [prolong His days] and the pleasure , the desire, the longing of the LORD shall prosper, be successful, shall be effected in His hand.

    Now if the Lords desire is for all men to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth, and that word will which is the greek word thelō and means :

    to will, have in mind, intend

    a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

    b) to desire, to wish

    c) to love

    1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

    d) to take delight in, have pleasure

    Then it stands to reason that the Lord Jesus Christ will or has effected that will or desire of His Fathers, or how else can it be True that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand ?

    If their are some men whom The Father desires to be saved and to come into the Knowledge of the Truth, and Christ through His death, burial and resurrection and present intercession for them does not deliver or make good to the Fathers desire, then How can it be said that the Pleasure of the Lord prospers in His hand ? How can it be successful ?

    So in essence, those who believe that 1 Tim 2:4 is Gods desire for all men without exception, and that some of those will perish in their sins without being saved and coming into the Knowledge of the Truth, then you are saying that Christ is a failure in accomplishing the Fathers will or desire or delight..
     
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Those who oppose limited or particular atonement....do not believe that Christ alone saves? Is that what you meant to say? Or those who espouse it?
     
  19. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    Preacher4trutgh,

    I had typed a post as to my opinion to his belief, then changed my mind. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #19 Doubting Thomas, Jun 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2011
  20. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are we the only ones who see the problem with his opening line, and conclusion of first paragraph?

    Reading comprehension, anyone?

    :thumbsup:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...