SDA Doctrine RE Satan

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Shiloh, Jan 8, 2007.

  1. Shiloh

    Shiloh
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    1. The devil sinned in his heart by having a desire to be like God and because of that was cast out of Heaven, and we are told about it in Isa.14:12-14.

    2. Now on the earth he is an accuser of the brethern, Job ch. 1 and 2 along with other fallen beings.

    3. In Gen. 3. the devil approached Eve and tempeted her to question the authorship the accuracy and the acceptability of Gods Word.

    4. The devil also in Mat.4 tried to temp the Son of God to sin.

    Many other places in the Bible I believe we see satan working instead of sending his "helpers" the other fallen beings that fell when he did.

    5. The devil will be bound for 1000 years, Rev.20:1-3, and then in vs.7 we see him loosed for a short time to deceive the nations and will be defeated.

    Now, What will be his end and what special treatment does he get or what extra responsibility does satan have yet to fulfill? We find that answer in Rev.20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    There is absolutely NO Scripture in the entire Bible to tell us our sins are placed on satan! satan has or never had anything to do with salvation, Redemption, the atonement of Christ or anything else pertaining to our eternal Salvation.
    The devil will pay for sins all right.....his! Just like a person will who rejects Christ.
     
  2. Claudia_T

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    you need windshield wipers on your eyeglasses so that you can go back and re-read what has been posted on the thread about the one goat being Satan...

    Question to our SDA friend


    I will leave it at that.
     
    #2 Claudia_T, Jan 8, 2007
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  3. BobRyan

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    Frankly I am shocked that Shiloh gets this much right!!

    This is really beyond anything I had hoped for from Shiloh...

    I almost don't want to post on his errors at this point ... just pause to notice this degree of light in anything coming from Shiloh!!

    What a great moment!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Claudia_T

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    well shiloh did also get this part right, Bob..

    "The devil will pay for sins all right.....his! Just like a person will who rejects Christ."


    its like.... what Ive been saying all along...


    its the part in the middle they seem to be ...well.... having a problem with listening to
     
  5. BobRyan

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    ok... moment's over.



    The point you are missing is that by the time we get to the Devil being tossed into the Lake of Fire - the complete debt OWED by Satan is fully known.

    Obviously Satan ows the "DEBT" for tempting everybody -- but recall that in Matt 4 Satan defines the world as HIS to give and in 2Cor 4 we see him identified as "the god of this world" the one who deceives the whole world.

    In Dan 7 a future point is reached where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:20-22 and at that time the objective process that reaches that conclusion IS ALSO able to objectively conclude that Satan's claim to the saints as "part of HIS world" is false and his right to lead them, tempt them etc is shown to be false.

    Each act of sin - each act of wickedness has it's associated weight of suffering in the second death - Satan must pay for ALL of his sins -- not just most of them.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Shiloh -- Preach it!

    However, you came to the correct conclusion using a wrong
    premesis:

    Shiloh: //1. The devil sinned in his heart by having a desire
    to be like God and because of that was cast out of Heaven,
    and we are told about it in Isa.14:12-14.//

    This passage is often misunderstood, especially in un-annotated
    editions of the KJVs.

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Isaiah 14:12 (KJV1611 Edition):
    How art thou fallen from heauen, ||O Lucifer,
    sonne of the morning?
    how art thou cut downe to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations?


    Translator margin note:
    || Or, O daystarre

    This footnote shows that the second best translation
    of the Hebrew there is 'O daystarre'. Or here is the
    second best translation:

    Isaiah 14:12 (KJV1611 Edition):
    How art thou fallen from heauen, O daystarre,
    sonne of the morning?
    how art thou cut downe to the ground,
    which didst weaken the nations?

    This compares the King of Babylon to the
    Planet Venus in it's day star role and as
    'son of the morning' (morning star).

    Any meaning about the Lead Devil (AKA: Satan)
    is by type not by direct reference.
     
  7. Shiloh

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    Each act of sin - each act of wickedness has it's associated weight of suffering in the second death - Satan must pay for ALL of his sins -- not just most of them.

    Hello.....ah....I think I read that some where before.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    It is true that this is locally applicable to a local earthly King - but in the details we see the text going far beyond what is possible for a human to do or to have ever been. It applies in its fullest most literal sense to Lucifer. In fact this is where we find out that the name for Satan originally was Lucifer.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Shiloh

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    BR, I have to try to keep the study of correct Bible doctrine real simple. There are a few of you on here that are having trouble understanding even the simple truth of John 19:30! Where Jesus said, "It is finished." Buddy or what ever you really are can not add anything to that and call yourself a "Christian."
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1john 2:2 states that "The ATONING SACRIFICE" NIV was completed at the cross and this is what WAS FINISHED in John 19:30 -- John is consistent on this point.

    My point has been that in Lev 16 where GOD defines the concept of ATONEMENT in the DAY of Atonement GOD INCLUDES BOTH the work of HIGH PRIEST (seen in Heb 8-10) and the work of Christ as the LAMB OF GOD (seen in 1John 2:2).

    There is no way to turn a blind eye to scripture and IGNORE what God is teaching in Lev 16 on this very subject -- yet you try to do that very thing time after time after time.

    it is really easy to get this part of the bible and understand it. I don't know why you are pretending to fail to grasp the truth of scripture on this point.
     
  11. Shiloh

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    My point has been that in Lev 16 where GOD defines the concept of ATONEMENT in the DAY of Atonement GOD INCLUDES BOTH the work of HIGH PRIEST (seen in Heb 8-10) and the work of Christ as the LAMB OF GOD (seen in 1John 2:2).

    it is really easy to get this part of the bible and understand it. I don't know why you are pretending to fail to grasp the truth of scripture on this point. By blind Bob

    Maybe this will shed some light on your false doctrine, try to read it real slow because it seems to be real complicated for some of you:

    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Here is another real tough one for you two,

    1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    I am so glad that I don't have to wait for the devil to make final atonement for me!

    [ad hominem removed]
    Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort tou that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
     
    #11 Shiloh, Jan 9, 2007
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  12. BobRyan

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    Shiloh then does some obligatory whining and ranting -- but manages to actually weakly "respond" with ...



    Basically Shiloh completely caved -- since God's word in Heb 8-9 on the High Priestly ministry of Christ is not in opposition to Christ as the source of salvation - either in Lev 16 or in Heb 8-10.


    As noted in my post above - shiloh fails to even begin to understand the teaching of Lev 16 and so seems to randomly insert scripture between his ranting and whining.


    I don't doubt that this is truly his best efforts here - I am just arguing that the point of the discussion is really pretty simple to fathom and he should be able to respond cogently and with reason rather than forced to simply whine and rant on each post.


    It just isn't that hard.


    in Christ,

    bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    BTW speaking of the apparent challenges Shiloh is having with simple concepts -- does the title of this thread make sense? Is it a complete sentence? What does "out ...garbage to rest" mean?

    Does Shilohw think SDAs wrote Lev 16?

    Does shiloh just want to promote some kind of "venom boldly stated" on a thread topic without actually making sense in his vitriol? Is it a statement of the form "I am Shiloh - I spew venom - never mind if it makes sense"??
     
  14. Claudia_T

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    I think maybe they meant to say "Put" instead of "Out"

    <more obligatory whine and rant deleted here>


    .. thats funny :laugh:

    I dont know why they just cant seem to get the concept that we arent saying that Satan makes atonement for our sins.
     
    #14 Claudia_T, Jan 9, 2007
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  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: No doubt Satan does owe a debt for his sins of tempting, but don’t blame it all on Satan. Scripture tells us that we sin when we are ‘drawn away of OWN lusts and enticed.’

    Most of us if not all, as well as Satan, have been guilty of laying snares in the lives of others, been bad examples, or otherwise been a source of temptation to others. We have failed at times to be the witness we should have been. You cannot blame it all on Satan. We all, apart from the blood of Christ and His forgiveness, would be justly bound for eternal punishment for our sins.

    Sure Satan will have much to answer for, but sin is not Satan’s fault. ‘The soul that sinneth it shall surly die.’ Every man shall be accountable for his own sins, and not for another………yet Scripture does tell us it is possible for the blood of others to be required at our hands.

    It would seem to me that if we centered our focus on our own guilt, and left Satan up to God, and spend more time developing doctrines concerning our willful sin and less concerning Satan, the better of we would be.

    To create whole doctrines concerning Satan, that at best are at causing confusion and strife in the body of Christ, serves far more harm than good IMO. Why don’t we just leave Satan to God and dwell on our own sin and guilt and the atonement Christ made for us for a while?

    Possibly BR or others would be so kind as to tell us of the import of such a controversial study surrounding goats and Satan and how this makes them a better person or draws them closer to Christ or sheds the least shred of light on our salvation. I see it as an issue to sidetrack us from the important issues personally.
     
  16. Claudia_T

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    Heavenly Pilgrim asked:
    "Possibly BR or others would be so kind as to tell us of the import of such a controversial study surrounding goats and Satan and how this makes them a better person or draws them closer to Christ or sheds the least shred of light on our salvation. I see it as an issue to sidetrack us from the important issues personally."



    First of all, WE didnt start all of this about the subject of the goat and the Sanctuary, Shiloh did. --and he cannot seem to let it go...



    Secondly, I dont claim to speak for Bob, but this is my outlook on this subject, since you asked, and it is also the Seventh Day Adventist view of the Great Controversy:


    One has to get the concept of the thread running through the entire scriptures of the Great Controversy between God and Satan.

    If you view the entire thing as revolving around "me and my salvation" then you will miss the entire point.

    This is primarily between God and Satan. Lucifer who became God's adversary in Heaven, deceived a third of the angels in heaven, by wanting to be God himself, and all throughout the history of the world we see him casting doubt upon the character of God. Such as in what he did to Eve in the Garden of Eden to start this entire thing.

    "oh did God tell you this?" "Well He really just didnt want you to know that you are little gods yourself"

    Satan has done this time and again, as we see the scenario acted out in the book of Job. The entire thing starts out with Satan telling God that although Job is serving him, he is only doing it out of selfishness... not out of love for God... its because of the blessings he receives... Nobody would ever serve God just because of the righteousness of His Government out of appreciation for His ways and His character of love.

    So God allows Job to lose everything. He proves Satan wrong. Job said "Though He slay me, yet I will trust in Him". We must realize this same scenario is acted out in all of our lives..

    At the very beginning in the book of Genesis, we are told God puts enmity between God's children and Satan. Satan will bruise the heel of Jesus (on the cross) but Jesus will bruise HIS HEAD.... we must realize this is telling us that at the cross there was much more at stake, involving SATAN and his lies about the character of God.

    Gen:3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    Meaning that at the cross, yes the atonement was finished, but also in a broader sense the death of Jesus on the cross proved the love of God forever... the complete unselfish character of God was shown in Jesus dying for us on the cross. Light about God, the true picture of God was revealed at that cross... Jesus said if you've seen Me you have seen the Father... Satan's lies PUT TO REST FOREVER! "Immanuel, GOD WITH US". Its not all about God is the mean old tyrant of the old testament but Jesus is the "nice" forgiving one.

    2Cor:5:19: ...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself


    READ!! THIS IS WHY JESSUS CAME HERE! to show us what the Father is really like and to obliterate the lies Satan has told, deceiving the entire world about God:

    Jn:1:
    5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.


    Its not just about our salvation, in a broader sense its all about God and the fact that though most dont realize this, but God is on trial before the entire universe...

    Rom:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.



    Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God.

    "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.


    This is what we are supposed to be realizing.. you dont do good works to "merit heaven"... rather, our entire Christian experience is SUPPOSED to revolve around glorifying God and proving/showing His character of love to the world, showing Satan's false charges against God to be wrong

    Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


    THIS is what its always been all about, in the old testament AND the new:

    Deuteronomy 4:
    5: Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
    6: Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
    7: For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
    8: And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

    This is what Seventh Day Adventists call "'THE GREAT CONTROVERSY" between Christ and Satan.

    The "it is finished" really and truly ends with Satan and his evil angels being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

    THAT was what the lake of fire was intended for in the first place:

    Mt:25:41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

    at the end of this entire GREAT CONTROVERSY... THIS is what happens:

    Rv:15:3: And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


    THAT is what its all about. That is what His loving forgiveness is all about, that is what His undeserved grace is all about, showing HIS LOVE to those who dont deserve it.

    THAT is what us repenting and changing our ways is supposed to be all about, walking as He walked, reflecting His character of love to the world. Its not completely all about "me and whether or not I get saved"

    THIS is the Seventh Day Adventist "Great Controversy" theme and once you comprehend it many Scriptures begin to open up to you... that you hadnt noticed before... and you notice this theme more and more throughout the Scriptures.

    Its all about GOD.

    Mt:6:33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


    ...and it is definitely Satan's fault, because he is the one who has deceived people and angels throughout history about God's character. Ultimately he is the deceiver, "the Adversary", but at the same time, we are responsible for allowing ourselves to be deceived by him.

    Rv:12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Thats why in the Sanctuary, God has some things He wants to portray about Satan and his part in all of this... its not just about atoning for our sins.

    Ezek:28:
    6: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God
    13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15: Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.




    Claudia
     
    #16 Claudia_T, Jan 9, 2007
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  17. Claudia_T

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    The identification of the scapegoat also involved the meaning of the word "Azazel" (ibid., pp. 234–237). On this point many non-Adventist scholars, such as Jenks, Spencer, Charles Beecher, and Matthew Henry, were quoted extensively. It was pointed out that both the Hebrews and the early Christians considered Azazel as the name of the devil, or a demon, and that the Syriac Azzail paralleled this usage. It was pointed out, further, that the use of the preposition "for," in the Hebrew of Lev. 16:8, implies that the lots were cast for a person—one for YHWH and one for Azazel. This would rule out Azazels being an impersonal name for evil. Also, it was pointed out that the Targums treated Azazel as a proper name, and that the Septuagint rendered it by apopompaios, a Greek word applied to a malign deity. This was also the position of the early Church Fathers. Origen said, "He who is called in the Septuagint apopompaios, and in the Hebrew Azazel, is no other than the devil."

    In the Review and Herald for July 3, 1883 (60:424), Uriah Smith develops the subject at considerable length, listing reasons for considering Azazel as Satan: "The scape-goat having once been selected, it never after performed any office involving dignity or honour, or calling for any thing which would symbolise perfection of life or character. . . . The atonement is all made, sins are remitted, the records of the evil deeds of God’s people are blotted out, and they are forever freed from them, and these sins are all borne from the sanctuary, before ever Satan is called into requisition at all. God then simply uses him as the vehicle by which to make a final disposition of these sins in the lake of fire. Thus, so far as the work of atonement itself is concerned, the plan and work of mercy by which God’s people are forgiven their sins, Satan has no part to act."
     
  18. Claudia_T

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    Contrary to popular opinion, Satan is not going to be in charge of Hell, on God's payroll, having a good time, sticking people in the rear end with a pitchfork.

    He and his lies about God were DEFEATED at the Cross. Jesus bruised his head.

    ....and its going to be bye bye Satan :wavey: in the Lake of Fire


    Like it or not, God has some things to say about Satan in the Bible and sometimes He uses symbolism to do it. And it behooves us to take a listen to what He is trying to say instead of just ignoring it.
     
    #18 Claudia_T, Jan 9, 2007
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  19. Shiloh

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    Bob, I can appreciate your inteligence. I marvel at your intellect. I stand amazed at your vast knowledge. I can not fathom your vast wisdom. Thats why I can't understand why you are in a cult that is leading you to a devils hell.
     
    #19 Shiloh, Jan 9, 2007
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  20. Ed Edwards

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    there are those Baptists who
    would like to learn more about who the SDA are and what
    they believe. But Ed's ground rules first:

    -------------------------------
    The nature of prejudice is the bait and switch technique.
    Here is an example of that twisted logic.

    Bait. The SDA is a Cult (doesn't agree with my religion)
    switch. by definition 'cult' is a control freak and some follower freaks
    - cults are evil
    - The SDA is evil
    - we are justified vilifying the SDA and people who are SDA

    But however you justify your prejudice about the SDA,
    prejudice is evil.
    -------------------------------

    Calling the SDA a 'cult' is evil.
    The SDA are a legitimate Protestant religion.
    Any other conclusion is evil against our Brothers & Sisters
    in Christ.

    I looked all the way through the Bible and never found
    no justification for the Doctrine:
    "being non-Baptist is a sin". :jesus:
     

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