SDA "failed" Prophesy

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Sep 22, 2003.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand
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    "I was shown the company present at the Conference, Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." Ellen G. White, 1Testimonies, p. 131-132. May 27,1856

    "Said the angel" - this was a "vision"

    "company present at the Conference" - SDA people at their Conference that Ellen White was talking about

    "Some food for worms" - these guys are dead and in the ground at the Second Coming

    "some subjects of the seven last plagues" - these guys are not yet dead and are still living at the time of the tribulation

    "1856" - 147 years ago

    This is a "failed" prophesy.

    No person living 147 years ago is still around to be "subject to the seven last plagues".

    Everyone living 147 years ago is "food for worms".

    As has been shown before from "Ellen White's own words", either HER WORK is "of God" or "of the devil".

    What is the "implication" of this FAILED PROPHESY to SDA's?
     
  2. Ben W

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    Trying2understand,

    Im interested to know if you have ever read the book, "The White Lie" by Walter Rea?
     
  3. trying2understand

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    No I have not.

    I understand it talks about Ellen White's plagerism of other authors in her writings, doesn't it?
     
  4. Ben W

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  5. trying2understand

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    Bob, I'm hoping that you can shed some light on this.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Since trying2Understand is trying to run away from the response to this post already posted on another thread - I will include the response here too.

    Maybe we can wait for a "cogent, objective, distinctively Christian" reply to this post - as we are still waiting for the reply on the "Details" given by the Catholic sources to the historic practice of "extermination' by the Catholic church.

    (oops this post is getting too long for some of our RC bretheren to read - I will include the reply on the next post).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    I have made this exceedingly "easy" for Trying2Understand. He claims there are FOUR specific dates predicted in vision.

    Knowing he will completely fail at finding four - I lower the bar FOR Trying2Understand and offer to give him the point if he can find even ONE.

    Notice his failed attempts.


    That "prediction" came years AFTER 1843. It was not a "prediction" of ANY future event. Rather it was a historic perspective on PAST events. The vision in question "predicted" NO date for the 2nd coming of Christ. Rather it "explained" a PAST event, a PAST failure of the Millerites.

    But then that would be "the details". It is very hard to "predict" an event in 1843 when one is writing years AFTERwards.


    Another "failed" attempt by Trying2understand. Quoting ANOTHER statement by Ellen White introduced YEARS AFTER 1844. A statement that is nothing more than a retrospective look at HISTORY in the year 1844 NOT a "prediction" about any FUTURE event.

    THIS failed attempt by Trying2Understand to SHOW a "vision" quoted by Ellen White (or anybody else) that predicted ANY specific date for the 2nd coming - is poorly disguised. IN this case James White is stating that the teenage Ellen Harmon expected Christ to come in 1844 (he gets his date wrong) - BUT still it shows NO vision being quoted by Ellen Harmon (A 16 year old who had had NO visions prior to the failed dates in 1844) predicting ANY specific date for the 2nd coming.

    Trying- keeps-trying our patience as he goes from one failed attempt to the next with no "specific date" being referenced by a vision "predicting" the 2nd coming. (Which was THE Point of his charge).

    This is NOT a predicted "DATE". Rather it is a statement that we are in the end of time - and time is short. Other than stating that time is short and almost finished it makes NO "prediction" about a "specific date" NOR does it select a date "in the 1850's".

    Paul states in 1Thess4 "WE who are ALIVE and REMAIN will be caught up together with THEM in the air" but does not "predict" a date in the first century by doing so. No specific "DATE" was predicted - only the concept that time is short.

    Again - NO "specific date" and no "vision predicting a specific date".

    The "only argument" trying2understand is able to "prove in the details" that Ellen White kept saying the time is "short".

    1 Cor 7:29 "Time IS SHORT from now on those who have wives should live as if they had none".

    Going on a crusade against those prophets that claim that time "is short" in the NT age will cut across a lot of road.

    "WE who ARE alive AND remain will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ) in the air" 1Thess 4:13-16.

    NO specific date "predicted".

    The "best" argument is that "a SHORT time" is predicted with no actual DATE - and certainly no SPECIFIC date set EITHER in the case of Paul or in the case of Ellen White.

    Having failed to "show a SPECIFIC DATE" predicted by even ONE vision, trying2understand settles for showing that "Time is SHORT" and attempt to twist that into a "specific DATE set".

    IF you had claimed "Ellen White claimed to have visions indicating that time was very SHORT" I would not have challenged you statements - because I would have known that "the details" supported your "claim".

    But as it is - this is just "another example" of RC lack of attention to "detail".

    No wonder we keep going around on the point that it was NOT the NON-CAtholics that introduced Vicarius Filii Dei in the dark ages - and it is a Catholic document that PROVES it.

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  8. trying2understand

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    Bob, how about adressing the first post to this thread directly?

    Who was present at the Conference about 150 years ago that is still alive (not food for the worms) that will be "subjects of the seven last plagues" as Ellen White states?
     
  9. BobRyan

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    "WE who ARE alive AND remain will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ) in the air" 1Thess 4:13-16.

    Why do our Catholic bretheren have such a hard time with "details"?


    Are the posts that reply "in detail" to charges they dream up - just "too long"?

    I just don't get it. Have they no "real interest" in what they are posting?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. trying2understand

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    So the ressurected dead, who are alive in Christ, will be "subjects of the last seven plagues"?

    And if they were physically dead, although alive in Christ, were they not "food for worms"?

    Just not following you, Bob.

    Exactly who was present at the Conference 150 years ago that will also be "subjects of the last seven plagues"?
     
  11. trying2understand

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    Bob, make it easy on both of us.

    Tell me who present at the Conference 150 years ago would be:

    1) food for worms

    2) subjects of the seven last plagues

    3) alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus

    Three seperate groups. Please be so kind as to identify their physical state today. That is alive or dead?
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Paul speaks to his living readers and states "WE who are ARE alive AND remain" will be caught UP together with THEM "The DEAD IN CHRIST" in the air. And in these words gives hope to the living (readers) about their dead loved ones (those who have fallen asleep, the DEAD in Christ).

    Paul is speaking to his contemporaries saying "WE who are ALIVE " INSTEAD of saying "WE who will have died by that time" or instead of saying "THOSE who are living at the end of time will join US who have died or US who have fallen asleep".

    So he DOES address those who have fallen asleep - IN HIS DAY - and speaks also to those who are still alive - but he carries that same condition down to the end of time - the 2nd coming of Christ. As though HE would STILL be this side of the grave --- though we are now 2000 years later -- and the loved ones who "fell asleep" - the "Dead in Christ" would still be "DEAD in Christ".

    And he is writing SPECIFICALLY about the perspective of those who REMAIN alive while living as they consider their loved ones that have died "THE DEAD IN CHRIST".

    Paul says "REGARDING those who have fallen asleep".

    This "could not BE any easier".

    But of course that would be "the details".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. trying2understand

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    The "detail" that you fail to give is exactly who present at the Conference 150 years ago will be "subject of the seven last plagues".

    Another "detail" that you gloss over is "some will be alive AND REMAIN ON THE EARTH". This is different than what Paul is saying. These are very obviously people who have NOT PHYSICALLY DIED.

    You need to try again, I think.

    [ September 24, 2003, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  14. trying2understand

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    Bob Ryan, I have bumped this hoping that you will provide us with an answer to the question.

    Who was present at the Conference 150 years ago that will be "subject of the seven last plagues"?
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Who is "alive and still remains" from the days of Paul?

    Who?

    How Can Paul be correct if none of those of Paul's day are in fact "Alive and Remain" - vs the dead in Christ who have fallen asleep (as the text says).

    Who? Who would that be?

    This is the "detail" our RC bretheren love to avoid .. and dodge.... on this point.

    But why? What purpose does it serve?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. neal4christ

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    Interesting, T2U. I am not following Bob's logic either in his answers.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  17. trying2understand

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    Who is "alive and still remains" from the days of Paul?

    Who?

    How Can Paul be correct if none of those of Paul's day are in fact "Alive and Remain" - vs the dead in Christ who have fallen asleep (as the text says).

    Who? Who would that be?

    This is the "detail" our RC bretheren love to avoid .. and dodge.... on this point.

    But why? What purpose does it serve?

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Since Paul was writing for the benefit of all the Church, including those who were to comme in the future. His "we who are alive" could also refer to Christians who are not as yet even born.

    Your prophetess is specifically talking about people who were present at the Conference 150 years ago.

    So again, who was present at the Conference 150 years ago who will subject to the last plagues?
     
  18. trying2understand

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    Bumped for Bob Ryan.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    As much as you are "trying not to understand the text" - it is quite simple.


    1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
    ...


    Paul is "clearly" writing to his comtemporaries. They ARE the primary first-order audience.

    Hmmm - ALL Christians in ALL ages "taught by God"??

    Well - the FIRST and PRIMARY audience would conclude this was true for THEM.

    And so also do we accept it for US (thought I suppose there are some RC members that do not).

    Again -- the text makes it abundantly clear - Paul is speaking first and foremost to his contemporaries. Those who "ARE in Macedonia" at the time of the writing of the letter.

    For this WE SAY to YOU... WE WHO are alive and REMAIN..

    It is so hard to "miss this" that it is unbelievable any "could".


    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    Paul clearly - obviously - unquestionably expected the Lord's return in his lifetime AND the lifetime of those who read his letters.

    There is no "thousands of years from now, when we are all dead and gone... THOSE who are alive AT THAT time will be caught up together with US in the air"....

    As much as the RC position on this thread "needs that to be in the text" -- it just isn't there.

    Paul EXPECTED the soon return of Christ..


    Here again in 1Cor 7 "THE TIME has ALREADY come"...

    I am sure this is very hard for some of our RC bretheren to read but - it is there none-the-less. Paul clearly, obviously expected the soon return of Christ and pointed to the indwelling ministry of the Spirit of God as his authority.

    In fact -- check with ALL the NT authors - they ALL expected the soon return of Christ - as the Holy Spirit continually made that presentation to them.

    As Peter stated "IT is TIME for judgement to begin with the house of God".

    John adds "WE KNOW we are in the last days" in 1John 2.

    The testimony of each of the NT authors is consistent - and in perfect harmony with the immenent soon return of Christ. The message of the NT church - beyond question.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ October 03, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  20. trying2understand

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    Ok, Bob, so Paul thought that the Second Coming would be during his lifetime. At the same time he also said that the Second Coming could be at anytime and that we must always be prepared.

    Did he make a claim to a vision that told him when the Second coming would be as Ellen White did?

    Ellen White claimed to have a vision that told her that some of the people present at the conference 150 years ago would be subject to the last plagues.

    You still have not explained this.

    What people at the conference 150 years ago will be subject to the last plagues?
     

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