SDA Hypocrisy?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by nate, May 7, 2006.

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  1. nate

    nate
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    Is it just me or is the SDA church hypocritical? They claim they keep the Law and the Commandments. But yet the SDA's I know do not stone their rebellious children. Nor do they do any of these:
    Lev. 19:9 "Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest"

    and none of them keep Lev. 19:19 "You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

    So my question is this how do you SDA decide which OT laws to keep and which to throw away. I ask because you don't eat Pork which is not a 10 Commandment.
     
  2. SpyHunter

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    That is a good question, nate. While I dare not encompass all Seventh-Day Adventists under that catch-22, I would certainly say several legalists on this board have a contradictory veneer of righteousness when they doubtfully follow the entirety of the Law of Moses (The only real issue I take with the matter is when someone incorrectly takes the word of Jesus when He says, "Obey MY commandments," and proceeds to put in the commandments of MOSES. Jesus' commandments were to love one another, not to abstain from pork.)
    But I could be wrong-- I'm sure they all go outside their town with a shovel when the need to defecate arises (Deuteronomy 23:12-13); or abstain from church/town for 7 days, continually washing, should they "issue" on themselves (Leviticus 15:2-14); or perhaps they gather in the place the LORD designates to celebrate the feasts of the LORD with burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings (Leviticus 23?
    And maybe for the especially overzealous Sabbatarians, we might check in on them from Friday's sunset to Saturday's sunset to insure theythey are not 1-- cooking (Exodus 16:23-25); 2-- outside their house (Exodus 16:29); 3-- really doing anything at all (Leviticus 23:3). As per point 2, they could not even be gathered together in church, as each man was to remain in his home. And if they failed to do any of this-- even failing to abstain from church attendance on the Sabbath-- they would be inexorably stoned (Exodus 31:14-16; Moses says it three times, so beware ye legalists and Sabbatarians: your lives are literally at stake).
    Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord that I can serve the law of God in my mind in spite of a wicked flesh, that I do not have to tame my flesh according to statutes and ordinances. But my flesh can be crucified by His Spirit, that I be found in Christ Jesus and not condemned as I walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (including its self-justification).

    Blessings,
    SpyHunter
     
  3. Ben W

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    Not being an Adventist, I cant answer, but my guess would be that they would consider which laws are fufilled in Christ such as the levitical laws pertaining to sacrifice, and which laws still carry over.

    Maybe it could be viewed around the idea that Gods Kingdom is both now and not yet?
     
  4. SpyHunter

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    The point of hypocrisy remains-- I can say the law of ceremonial cleanliness carries over and use the same methodology the SDA use, for example, in "proving" their dietary regulations are expected of us by God. All legalists stringently hold to one thing while tossing another under the bed. That is the Achilles' heel of legalism, and one that is fails every time.
    Which is why I will not frustrate the grace of God by pursuing the Law. If righteousness could be found through such an endeavor, then He died without cause.

    Blessings,
    SpyHunter
     
  5. SpyHunter

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    However, I would love for the detailed points in both my first post and in Nate's post to be included in any legalist's response. I truly would like to hear more on them.

    Blessings,
    SpyHunter
     
  6. Claudia_T

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    Im sorry but I am just TOO legalistic to answer you.

    And how many kids I have stoned in my lifetime just isnt any of your business.

    I will tell you one thing though, I have been trying to cut down.. it's just too messy..


    Proverbs 26:5
     
  7. Claudia_T

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    [***Moderator's Note: According to the BB User Agreement:
    [ May 09, 2006, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    Seventh Day Adventists believe in keeping the 10 Commandmente because the Bible tells us to. Its that simple. The 10 commandments stand forever.


    Psalm 111:7,8: The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, , and are done in truth and uprightness.


    They also believe in taking good care of their bodies because God gave the health laws for our good.

    It doesnt matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, if you dont have a proper diet it is going to take years off your life.

    Everyone already knows that... its common sense. If eating unclean meats was unhealthy for you in old testament times then if you put the same food into your body now it will have the exact same results.

    Thats why Seventh Day Adventists who follow the proper diet habits live on the average of 7 to 10 years longer than the general population.

    Click the link to read.

    SDAs Live Longer

    I dont know, it just makes sense to us, why not live 10 years longer?

    If you have a problem with that, I dont know what to tell you.


    There really isnt any more to be said about this that hasnt already been said.

    3Jn:1:2: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.


    The very best diet is the original diet give to man at creation, before sin entered and before death, which is the vegetarian diet,

    Genesis 1:29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


    Daniel followed the vegetarian diet, otherwise known as "pulse" and the results were very good:

    Daniel Chapter 1
    5: And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king's meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king.
    6: Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
    7: Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abed-nego.
    8: But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
    9: Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
    10: And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.
    11: Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
    12: Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
    13: Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
    14: So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.
    15: And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.
    16: Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.
    17: As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
    18: Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.
    19: And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
    20: And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.


    The second best diet involved the allowing of clean meats and the leaving off of the unclean meats. Its just plain not a good idea to eat scavengers, pigs and buzzards who feed on diseased carcasses and garbage.

    But God did allow the eating of clean meats after the flood.

    Many Seventh Day Adventists eat clean meats and others are vegetarians.


    I dont know what else there is to say about it, if you think we are legalistic, I guess thats your privilege to think that.

    If you think we are hypocritical, once again.. thats your privilege to think that.

    Oh, and I dont really go around stoning children, I was just being sarcastic because I thought the original questions and accusations about SDAs here were kind of ridiculous to start with.

    Claudia

    [ May 07, 2006, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  9. BobRyan

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    You have stated this in an eye-catching way Nate- Well done!

    At Sinai God established not only a formal church structure BUT ALSO a Nation with CIVIL LAWS under a THEOCRACY.

    Get it?

    Your assumption above is in the form "God used to have some pretty bad ideas and inferior rules for His people. HE got over that in the NT and now we are freed from His inferior laws".

    Nothing of the kind is ever stated in history, in scripture or by SDAs!

    In God's THEOCRACY there were civil laws - once the NATIONAL status as a THEOCRACY ended its CIVIL laws ended. Even the pre-Cross Jews of Christ's day could not enforce civil laws as a Theocracy since they were under subjugation to Rome AND they were no longer a Theocracy.

    God also had Ceremonial laws in the OT - related to animal sacrifices and ceremonies connected to sacrifices. ONCE the SYSTEM of sacrifices ended - those ceremonial laws based on them - could not longer be performed "as prescribed".

    God also shows us HEALTH laws in HIS WORD so while He DOES recommend "beef, and Chicken, Lamb, Deer, Salmon and Sea bass" - He FORBIDS "Rats, cats, dogs, bats"! And we see that same distinction even from the early pre-flood days as this clean/unclean distinction is made with Noah in Gen 6 and 7. The CLEAN go in by 7's and the UNCLEAN by 2's. So if Noah chews up a bat cat or dog - that is the END of the DOG or CAT species!! (Canine, Feline if you will)

    So the health laws for mankind kind are not some kind of "burden" for those who prefer beef to rats! (And this seems to come as a big shock to a few people on this board -- still it is true.)

    So far - I am only stating the painfully obvious.

    As for the Ten Commandments - the POLL shows the vast majority here upholding the FULL Ten instead of the DOWNSIZED 9.

    I gotta admit - that is a big shocker to me.

    That point about the Ethiopian Orthodox Church being the most ancient of eastern churchs was new to me - but the fact that they honor the full TEN commandments was not news. I just didn't realize that they STILL do that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    BTW - I think it is funny that Spyhunter appears to define legalism as "paying attention to God's Word" AS IF "playing pick-and-choose is so much BETTER"
     
  11. Kamoroso

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    Rom 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
    their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    Rom 3:31 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Rom 8:3-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Rom 13:8 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Rom 13:10 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Gal 5:14-18 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


    Rom. 6 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


    James 1:25 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    James 2 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

    Matt 5:17-19 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Matt 22:37-40 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    John 14:15 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 14:21 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
    11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

    1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


    I Jn 3:22-24 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


    II Jn 1:5-6 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
    6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

    Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


    According to what you believe, all of the scriptures above are referring to the whole law. By your own definition, we can never separate the ten from the rest. Therefore, we are admonished many times in the New Testament, to keep the entire law as you suggest. On the other hand, the New Testament is filled with the changes that have taken place in the law, since Christ was crucified.

    John 4 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    In the above verses , Jesus is telling the woman at the well, that soon it wont matter where you worship, including the temple at Jerusalem. This suggests, without question, that all of the laws pertaining to the temple and it’s services, will be done away with. These laws make up a significant part of the whole law that you are talking about. If all these laws are a part of the law referred to in the above verses, then why is God sending such a mixed message, telling us to keep the law, and even that He will never change it, and then turning around and changing it? By doing away with the temple and it’s services, He made it impossible for a great number of the laws you are talking about to be kept.

    John 8 1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    Here again, Jesus did not obey one of the laws of Moses. The only people he was dealing with in the above verses were Jews. You say that none of the laws have changed for the Jews. Here Christ has changed one by not fulfilling it.

    Acts 15 5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
    6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. -----------------------------------
    19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. ----------------------------------------
    24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    How about that. According to the above verses, the gentile converts don’t have to keep any of the laws you are referring to, accepting not to eat meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. All of these things being those things associated with the practices of the pagan religions they once observed. Again, if the ten are not separate from the rest, then what were all those verses about the law being established, kept, and never being abolished all about? This confusion is not brought about by the scriptures, but rather your interpretation of them. All so you can believe that the fourth commandment no longer applies.


    Acts 21 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    More of the same. I started to list verses from the book of Hebrews, but there was to much info. Almost the entire book of Hebrews is about the fact that the temple, its services, and its priesthood, are no more. This is exactly what Christ was telling the woman at the well, would soon happen. Again, this abolishes a large number of the whole law that you are referring to, even for the Jews themselves. Christ is now our High Priest, He is in the temple in heaven, and it is He that ever liveth to make intercession for us. These realities have replaced the earthly temple, its services, and all the laws pertaining to it. Again, the problem here is not the scriptures, but rather, the way some are interpreting them.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  12. Kamoroso

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    Chap. 11

    We will now examine the changes that have taken place between the old and new covenants in relation to the law, and its fulfillment in our lives. As discussed in an earlier chapter, the law was given to the children of Israel straight from the mouth of God. Unquestionably the purpose of presenting the law in this manner was to leave a deep impression upon the children of Israel regarding the sacredness of God's law. The law is a revelation of God's character, it is perfect as He is.

    PSA 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony
    of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
    PSA 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the
    commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    PSA 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments
    of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
    PSA 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold:
    sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

    Again, as has already been stated, the purpose of the law is to convict the soul of sin, in order that one might repent and be converted. This was the function of the law during the old covenant era, and is still the function of the law in this new covenant era. The conversion experience involves being changed from a law breaking non believer, to a law abiding and firm believer. During the old covenant era, the best way to establish the law within your heart was to dwell upon it. Thus the old testament writers, inspired by the Lord, admonished Israel to do so continuously.

    DEU 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine
    heart:
    DEU 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk
    of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the
    way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
    DEU 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be
    as frontlets between thine eyes.
    DEU 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy
    gates.


    PSA 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor
    standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
    PSA 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he
    meditate day and night.


    PSA 119:97 O how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
    PSA 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
    PSA 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies
    are my meditation.
    PSA 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

    These are just a few of the many examples of old testament scriptures admonishing us to dwell upon the law of the Lord. Through the law, one could see the righteous character of God, an example of how they should be. Necessarily then, the more one dwelt upon the law, the more one became like the one who's character the law represented. It was not the moral law alone that revealed God's character to the world, but also the sanctuary services that revealed God's love and mercy for the world. The law revealed God's character, and condemned ours. "ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" The sanctuary services and sacrifices revealed God's mercy through His plan of salvation for us.
    The old covenant believer dwelt upon the law so that its precepts might become a part of their character. At the same time, the more they dwelt upon the law, the more they were convicted of the sinfulness of their condition. Thus they were lead to the sanctuary with their sacrifices and learned about complete dependents upon God. Hopefully they would understand that the Messiah was the one who would ultimately pay the price for their sins. Unfortunately, as was made obvious by the reception that Christ received from His people when He came to them as their Messiah, most did not understand this most important truth. Even during the old covenant dispensation, God expressed His desire for the sacrifice of obedience over the sacrifice of animals representing Christ. This revealed that those who truly accepted what God was going to do for them through His Son, were to express that acceptance more by the sacrifice of their own wills to that of God's, than by the sacrifice of animals representing the Savior.

    PSA 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou
    opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
    PSA 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of
    me,
    PSA 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.


    SA1 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings
    and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is
    better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

    These same principles still apply today. However, the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ has fully established things that the written law and symbolic services of the sanctuary could only point to. Christ was and is the fulfillment of all that the sanctuary services pointed to, and was and is the fulfillment of the written moral law, the ten commandments. In Him these old covenant types are done away with. Not because they are no longer relevant, but because they are fulfilled and complete in Him. All that they were established to bring about in us, has been fully established in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
    not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    MAT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
    tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    MAT 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
    shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
    but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
    kingdom of heaven.
    MAT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
    righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into
    the kingdom of heaven.

    Nothing has been really done away with, rather it has been fulfilled. All things come together and are made complete in Christ. Apart from Him there is nothing. Christ was the center of everything about the old covenant, apart from Him all the laws and ceremonies would have amounted to nothing. Apart from Christ, the nation of Israel would have amounted to nothing, in fact it would never have even existed.

    JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    JOH 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    JOH 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made
    that was made.........-

    JOH 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world
    knew him not.
    JOH 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    JOH 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor
    of the will of man, but of God.
    JOH 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and
    truth.

    Here the Apostle John is trying to show his brethren that the God that they worshipped, the one who created all things was made flesh and dwelt among them. The one that they all went to the temple to worship, the one who's presents was in the temple and that made it holy, was here in the flesh and dwelling among them. They needed to understand this all important truth, and so do we. The law of God was fulfilled in His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. The only way it will ever be fulfilled in us will be when Christ Himself dwells within us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is true that because of Christ's sacrifice, we can now come boldly before the throne of God to receive forgiveness of our sins. However, just as during the old covenant it was said" to obey is better than sacrifice", even more so by the establishment of the new covenant it is better to obey than to offer sacrifice.
    Christ's coming in our flesh makes this more possible than ever before. In fact, the possibility of it has been established by Christ taking on our flesh and nature. Those believers of the old covenant, only looked forward to the promise of these things. We have the privilege of entering into the establishment of these things in and through Jesus Christ our Lord. Why should we be content to continually present Christ's sacrifice for our sins before the Father, when the way has been made for us to enter into Christ's experience and sacrifice our own wills to that of the Fathers with Christ on the cross. As previously stated in relation to the old covenant system, to sacrifice your own will to that of the Fathers through obedience, is better than sacrifices and offerings. Christ is our forerunner, He has prepared the way for us.

    HEB 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should
    take away sins.
    HEB 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
    offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    HEB 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    HEB 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of
    me,) to do thy will, O God.
    HEB 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and
    offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are
    offered by the law;
    HEB 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the
    first, that he may establish the second.
    HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body
    of Jesus Christ once for all.

    He takes away the first that He may establish the second. It was good that by faith those of the old covenant could sacrifice animals representing Christ for their sins, and receive forgiveness. It is also good that by faith we can come to God and lift up to the Father the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf for the forgiveness of our sins, and receive it. However, Christ established much more than this when he came in our flesh, he established the possibility of the righteousness of God being fulfilled within us.

    ROM 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
    condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all
    men unto justification of life.
    ROM 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    ROM 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where
    sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    ROM 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign
    through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


    ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
    abound?
    ROM 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
    therein?

    The sin, or offence, of one man brought judgment upon all men to condemnation. Adam was the father of all mankind, and he sinned against God. Since all of humanity are descendants of Adam, all have inherited his fallen, sinful nature. We were all in Adam when he fell in the garden. This is the situation that Christ came to correct. Christ is the second Adam. He is the second head of the human race, and all who choose to do so can be in Him. Just as the sin of one, Adam, brought condemnation upon all men, so the righteousness of one, Jesus Christ, brings justification upon all men. We are born in Adam, we can be born again in Christ.
    Verse nineteen of chapter five says that just as one mans disobedience made many sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Christ's purpose for becoming a man was to make many righteous. So how does Christ make us righteous? The key is found in verse two of chapter six. " How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" The Apostle then goes on to say-

    ROM 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
    were baptized into his death?
    ROM 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as
    Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we
    also should walk in newness of life.
    ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we
    shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    ROM 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of
    sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    ROM 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Christ became a man, one of us. As a man he lived a perfectly righteous life before God the father. This perfectly righteous life lead the Lord Jesus Christ to the cross. The crucifixion was the climax of Christ's perfect righteousness. As the Apostle clearly points out in the above verses, those who are baptized into Christ Jesus are baptized into this experience, Christ's death. As all were in Adam, so now all are also in Christ on the cross. Having died with Him, we are now justified before God, for the penalty for sin is death. As verse seven says, " he that is dead is freed from sin." The one who has entered into this experience by faith, has sacrificed their own will to that of God's. This is the sacrifice that God prefers, to obey is better than sacrifice. How can one be born again without first dying? How can anyone be a new creature if they are still the old one?

    CO2 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that
    if one died for all, then were all dead:
    CO2 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth
    live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
    CO2 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
    CO2 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things
    are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    All were in Christ when He died. Those who accept this truth and enter into this experience, not only die with Christ, but are made new creatures. These new creatures no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them, the Lord Jesus Christ. They sacrifice their own will for the will of God. Again this is the sacrifice that God desires from us. Instead of continually offering up Christ to the Father for the forgiveness of our sins, it is better to offer ourselves to God the Father through Christ Jesus by dying with Him that He may live within us. Since Christ was the fulfillment of the law, His life in us will be the fulfillment of the law within us. This is a spiritual experience that could not be fully entered into, or understood, until the establishment of the new covenant in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Now instead of dwelling upon the written law as a means of becoming more like God, we can enter into the experience of the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law. Dying with Christ is the continual experience of surrendering our own will to that of the Fathers. Only when we have offered our selves to God in Christ, can Christ live within us.

    CO2 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that
    the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
    CO2 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake,
    that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

    The new covenant relation to the law is a spiritual experience that is completely centered in Christ. The type, or written law, was fulfilled in the antitype, Christ. The law was and is a revelation of God's character. Christ was God in the flesh, and therefore the fulfillment of the written law. Since God united himself to mankind through our own likeness and flesh, our relation to the law is now in Him through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. While we should in no wise disregard the written law, it is imperative that we enter into the experience of the cross, as a means of the fulfillment of the law. By this one righteous act, the demands of the written law are met, that is the death of the sinner, and the fulfillment of the law within us as new creatures in Christ Jesus. This is the new covenant experience. It is a spiritual one that is entered into by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for us. Again all things come together and are made complete in Christ. This could be accomplished only by God Himself becoming one of us, taking our nature and flesh to the cross.

    ACT 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers
    of the people, and elders of Israel,
    ACT 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man,
    by what means he is made whole;
    ACT 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
    the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
    ACT 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is
    become the head of the corner.
    ACT 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
    under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    There is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. If you wish to be made whole, and complete, then you must be in Christ, and have Christ within you. We were created in the image of God, whole. This is the condition that Christ has restored us to, if we are only willing to enter into this new covenant relationship with Him.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  13. SpyHunter

    SpyHunter
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    Claudia_T: MANY people often confuse Moses Law with God's 10 Commandment law, but they are very different.

    What basis is there for that, other than comfort's sake in debating? Your scriptural support is forced and stretched at best.

    "Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets."
    "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him." Daniel 9:10,11

    That is not clear at all about how there are "two" laws. If there truly are, then why does the New Testament refer to THE Law (definitive), not merely Moses' law.

    Claudia_T: So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law.

    I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Adam and Eve disobeyed a direct order by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; I didn't know they had another god, a graven image, misused God's name, did not keep the Sabbath, etc. My mistake. ;)

    Claudia_T: 1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    I find it odd how you assume Jesus' disciple John is talking about the law of Moses here, when Jesus said to him, "A NEW commandment I give to you: love one another." That and similar ones are the commandments of Christ; not the legalistic lunacy we've been reading. But that interpretation would be inappropriate since we seem to be interpreting the New Covenant through the Old one. Are you a Christian or an ancient Hebrew, here? I thought Jesus said something about the new wine and old wineskin...

    Claudia, you posted this verse:
    JAM. 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

    And yet you ignored the commandments which I posted for you. Are you keeping the ones in my previous post, or are you a hypocritical lawbreaker? As you so duly showed, if you break one commandment, you've broken them all.

    Claudia_T: Seventh Day Adventists believe in keeping the 10 Commandmente because the Bible tells us to. Its that simple. The 10 commandments stand forever.

    You showed a few verses which said to keep some sort of law, but other than inserting your own interpretation, have not shown from Scripture just WHAT commandments the Bible was talking about. When David says in the Psalsm, "LORD, Your commandments are pure," there is no qualification in the verse if David means the Ten Commandments, ceremonial cleanliness, or the laws of the Temple. We all know what you were talking about, but you still have not shown that Scripture says the Ten Commandments stand forever for all people for all time in the same application they had in Moses' time.

    Not the diet thing again. I thought we decided that while some foods may be a better choice than others, the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking and as such food is not a theological issue? That horse has been sufficiently whipped.

    BobRyan: God also shows us HEALTH laws in HIS WORD so while He DOES recommend "beef, and Chicken, Lamb, Deer, Salmon and Sea bass" - He FORBIDS "Rats, cats, dogs, bats"! And we see that same distinction even from the early pre-flood days as this clean/unclean distinction is made with Noah in Gen 6 and 7.

    Again, I don't want to rehash an old thread in this one, but "health laws" do not apply to those outside the Old Covenant. That Old Covenant would last for ever and ever as long as both parties kept it. One Party did, another did not. That is why we have a NEW one between the Father and Son which names us as beneficiaries. Jesus is the mediator of the Covenant, and He will not fail. And I'm sure even you, Bob, would not expect repentance from someone who ate a rat, cat, dog or bat out of necessity,i.e., eat it or starve to death. If so, then I pray God has mercy on your flawed mind.

    BobRyan: BTW - I think it is funny that Spyhunter appears to define legalism as "paying attention to God's Word" AS IF "playing pick-and-choose is so much BETTER"

    That is cute, Bob, and it is noted how you hid behind your church's talking points and ignored my points altogether. I did not do any such thing as to define legalism as "paying attention to God's Word." If I did, then I certainly would not accuse you of being a legalist. For if you read into the Bible the way you read into my posts, then it's no wonder you're all mixed up. Now, can you PLEASE tell me if you keep the commandments Nate and I listed, or if you gloss over them in "rebellion."

    Now, my point is this: I was not attacking the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. My great-grandmother was SDA, and I believe she is in Heaven now (contrary to her beliefs when she was among us). I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in legalism. Note this: Bob, Claudia- the same arguments you make for keeping Israel's dietary and health commandments can be DIRECTLY translated into keeping the commandments of ceremonial cleanliness. Yet you dismiss ceremonial cleanliness and keep the dietary ones. Maybe I should become obsessed with washing myself, my laundry, my possessions, and scorning those who do not remain outside for 7 days when they become "unclean." I don't mean to attack you, I just want you to see how your arguments are not as solid as they appear to you; they can be misapplied elsewhere just as solidly. And incorrectly.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    SpyHunter - so far you don't actually "make points" using the Bible and dont respond to the volumes of texts posted in direct contradiction to your wild claims.

    How in the world am I supposed to "respond to points" you make in that way?
     
  15. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Spyhunter,

    If the Bible says that sin is transgression of the law...
    1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    and the Bible also says we are not to sin just because we are under grace...
    Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


    Then how could you wind up thinking that we dont have to keep the law?


    Because to me thats simple as A B C..

    breaking the law = SIN,

    and grace doesnt mean you can now break the law

    I dont see how in the world anyone could end up thinking that somehow means that we now should sin and break the law.


    To believe that this means we must keep all the old testament laws is not biblical because Jesus plainly tells us which laws are being referred to.

    Matthew 19:
    16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    So do others...

    Romans 13:
    8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


    Claudia
     
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    I do find it slightly odd that with all the other Christian denominations out there that also believe in keeping the 10 Commandments, you and nate seem to be stuck on the Seventh Day Adventists.

    Claudia
     
  17. SpyHunter

    SpyHunter
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    Claudia, I just stated that I have no beef against the SDA church (no pun intended); my great-grandmother was SDA. I was arguing against legalists in general. I know many Seventh-Day Adventists who do not walk under law but under grace, and I find them valuable brothers and sisters in Christ.
     
  18. SpyHunter

    SpyHunter
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    As for Bob being unable to find the points I made, let me repost my first contribution to this thread for his viewing pleasure.
    There you go, Bob. I'll await your "volumous response" as you so aptly put it.

    Blessings,
    SpyHunter
     
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    My pun was that I called Steaver "pig-headed" LOL!
     
  20. SpyHunter

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    That's funny! And I agree that he was somewhat piggish. May he find peace.

    Blessings,
    SpyHunter
     
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