SDA teaching Michael is Jesus.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ben W, Mar 21, 2003.

  1. Ben W

    Ben W
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    I have come to realise that the Seventh Day Adventist Church have a teaching that Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour is in fact Michael the Archangel.

    The Seventh Day Adventist Chrurch is also openly Trinitarian. So how does this work? The Angels are created beings, If this is the case then Jesus Christ is a Created being of God the Father, Yet John 1:1 says - In the Begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    How is it then that a created being, Michael the Archangel could in fact be God?

    Over to my SDA friends, or anyone else who has an idea.
     
  2. 3AngelsMom

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    Hey Ben,

    This is a long, but interesting topic, and also one that the BB has already gone over!

    Read this: Who is Michael?

    I don't know if this guy is SDA or not, but what he said is pretty much in line with the SDA perspective.

    I don't personally agree with all of it, but it was the SDA position you were after, yes?

    God Bless
     
  3. AITB

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    The site 3AM linked to explains this belief as "Jesus's name used to be Michael" rather than "Jesus is only an angel" or "Jesus is a created being". So Jesus/Michael remains part of the Godhead.

    However, the Bible in Jude says:

    But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

    How can this being who did not dare to rebuke the devil in his own name, be Jesus? In the gospels Jesus cast out demons in his own name.

    Helen/AITB
     
  4. 3AngelsMom

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    Helen,

    That is actually the exact OPPOSITE of how we interpret that verse to read.

    Michael said nothing other than 'The Lord rebuke thee'.

    He didn't say 'I rebuke you in the name of the Lord'.

    The LORD rebuke thee.

    Also, where do you see Jesus rebuking demons in His name?

    God Bless
     
  5. AITB

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    My interpretation of Jesus casting out demons without saying "The Lord rebuke you" or invoking any other name, is that he was casting them out in his own name - i.e. he had the power and authority to cast out demons without having to appeal to anyone else's power and authority.

    This is somewhat similar to how he had authority to teach in his own name - that unlike other teachers of the day he didn't say "According to Rabbi so-and-so".

    Anyway, there are four references in the gospels to other people casting out demons in Jesus' name or to demons being subject to Jesus in his name.

    Matt 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

    Mark 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

    Luke 9:49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."

    Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

    I interpret the Jude verse the way I do partly because it says Michael did not dare. It speaks of Michael not having the authority in his own name that Jesus has - in my opinion, anyway.

    Helen/AITB
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Where did you see Jesus "Casting out demons in His own name"??

    In fact - where do you see Jesus praying to the Father "in His own name".

    Jesus says "My Father is greater than I" while on Earth and claims "Of My own self I can do nothing".

    That is not because Jesus is not fully equal to God the Father. Rather it is because He took on "a role" that was not equal to God as "man".
    In that case - the incarnation.

    In Genesis 18:1-2 God "appears" to Abraham with two angels in the form of "3 men".

    Wait a minute! A man is not God - and a man is not an Angel. In fact - John 1 says that no man has seen the Father at any time. We are told that no man can see God and live. And yet Abraham sees God. And God claims that Moses speaks with Him "face to face" when talking to Aaron.

    And worse than all the above - in John 16 the Holy Spirit does not speak his own word - but He takes the Word of Christ and gives it to us.

    The Triune God is presented in such a way where we see the 3 persons of the Godhead having "Roles".

    The Role of God the Son is "the Word" the one that fully represents the Father and conveys the infinite nature of the Father to finite beings. (which is EVERY living Being - except for God Himself).

    In Rev 12 we are told that "Michael and HIS Angels" are at war with the devil. But in fact - ALL the Angels are "God's Angels". No one else "has good angels" that "Belong to them" but God.

    Daniel 10 tells us that "Michael is the prince of the people of the saints".

    Isaiah 9 tells us that there is one prince in heaven that has been given to us - it identifies Him as - the Messiah that is to come. Not only is He "The Prince of Peace" He is "The Everlasting Father".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. donnA

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    Well, well, somepeople aren't ahppy unless their making something up. Too bad they don't care about truth. Now where does the bible say Jesus is michael, or that His name used to eb Michael.
    The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Daniel 10 tells us that "Michael is the prince of the people of the saints".

    Isaiah 9 tells us that there is one prince in heaven that has been given to us - it identifies Him as - the Messiah that is to come. Not only is He "The Prince of Peace" He is "The Everlasting Father".


    Did I say that already?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. 3AngelsMom

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    Helen,

    It said He did not dare bring against him a RAILING accusation. That word is bad. Railing is like being slanderous. Blasphemous even.

    So Michael DID NOT bring against Lucifer any kind of slanderous or crude accusations, but said only ONE thing.

    As I said before.

    Just one thing.

    "The LORD rebuke thee"

    God Bless
     
  10. Charles33

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    Well 3AM, this is new to me.

    Is Jesus the Archangel Micheal or not?
     
  11. 3AngelsMom

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    Hey Charles,

    Did you check out the site?

    Read that.

    It takes allot to explain this doctrine properly.

    Jesus is not an angel.

    Michael is the PRE incarnate Jesus.

    Same person.

    Angel just means messenger.

    Carrier of a message.

    Jesus is the WORD of God.

    When an 'Angel of the Lord' appeared before men, they identified that 'angel' as God.

    It was Jesus.

    The image of the invisible God.

    So was Michael "Who is like God".

    God Bless
     
  12. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    The Baptist scholar John Gill seems to have thought that Michael was Christ pre-incarnate. I don't buy the idea since Hebrews 1:5 says "to which of the angels did He ever say: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You'? And again: 'I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son?'" with the obvious implied answer "none!" Gill, however, commenting on Genesis 32:24 says "...the Targum of Jonathan says, it was an angel in the likeness of a man, and calls him Michael, which is not amiss, since he is expressly called an angel, #Ho 12:4; and if Michael the uncreated angel is meant, it is most true; for not a created angel is designed, but a divine Person, as appears from Jacob’s desiring to be blessed by him; and besides, being expressly called God, #Ge 32:28,30; and was, no doubt, the Son of God in an human form;..."
     
  13. Ben W

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    3Angelsmom,

    The purpose of this discussion, is to try and determine the official view held by the Seventh Day Adventist Church. not neccesaraly another group.

    As I am aware they teach that Jesus, and Michael the Archangel are one and the same.

    I would go and ask it on an online SDA forum, except that I cannot find one that is open to non SDA people.

    It is interesting that AITB brought up the verse in Jude, "The Lord Rebuke you". If we look at the Trinitarian view, Jesus is the Lord. So if He wanted to rebuke him he could. Michael only an Angel could not.

    I fail to see how the Trinity can be reconciled to a Created Being. That simply does not make sense.

    Is there an official SDA site that states publically their beliefs on this?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    3AngelsMessage brings up a good point here. Jude is making an argument "Against poor behavior" and is showing in the ultimate sense that even at the very highest leves when addressing the very ultimate evil (Satan himself) - that poor behavior is not "justifiable" how much less should we accept it among the bretheren.

    Turning this around in the form "well of course God could be expected to stoop to such a thing" is not in the text and so arguing that Michael is "not God" because "He did not dare to stoop to such a level" is like Saying that Christ was not God when tempted in the wilderness because He failed to issue against Satan "a railing accusation".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    In Gen 18 the "3 men" can be considered "created beings" but in fact two are Angels (created) and one is God Himself (not created). Michael (since He is simply a manifestation of God the Son) is not considered to be "created" any more than the 3rd "man" in Gen 18 is.

    The 27 Fundamental Beliefs document of SDA's outlines all the official doctrines of the church and does not include the teaching that Christ is Michael.

    Many (most if not all) SDAs find that the points raised here about Gen 18, Isaiah 9, Rev 12, Daniel 10 DO confirm the point that Michael is simply a pre-incarnate manifestation of Christ in His role as "the Word" - but that is not a doctrinal statement of the church.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. AITB

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    The point is, why did Michael not say "I rebuke thee" - or why did Jesus not say to demons "I cast you out in the name of the Lord" if they had the same authority?

    I think it's clear that Jesus had more authority than Michael because Jesus has authority over demons (and sickness, and the weather!) in his own name. He said "Be still!" to the storm, not "In the name of the LORD, be still" etc.

    You haven't addressed the issue of the name at all, in your comments, 3 AM. Whatever you say about the railing accusation doesn't change the fact that Michael had to use the name of the LORD and Jesus didn't.

    Helen/AITB
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Helen - as stated before. The practice of "railing accusations" is not "Ok for God but not for man". The argument used in Jude is that even in the most extreme contrasts - "railing accusations" are not justified.

    Jude was not making the argument "Michael is not God since he failed to make a railing accusation".

    Nor can we draw that from the fact that Christ in Matt 4 ALSO fails to make a "railing accusation" against Satan. Nor does Christ say in Matt 4 to Satan "I rebuke you".

    In fact in the temptation Christ STARTS by appealing to the high authority of the scriptures "For it is Written". And Satan meets him on that ground with other "It is Written" examples. BOTH of them are appealing to the High Authority of the Word of God.

    Your argument from Jude would turn this into "Christ is not God because He appeals to the SAME high authority as Satan to determine the standard of right and wrong" - in your argument Christ should have said "For I SAY man shall not live by Bread Alone" followed by "For I say you shall not tempt ME" and then "For I say you shall not worship anyone but ME"...

    Instead Christ appeals to the SAME standard that a mere man would appeal to if facing that same temptation - the High authority of God's Word.

    We can not draw from that - "Christ must not be God".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. 3AngelsMom

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    Helen,

    Could you please post the verses where Jesus cast out demons in His own name.

    You said:

    "In the gospels Jesus cast out demons in his own name.

    Helen/AITB"

    Could you please prove your statement.

    God Bless
     
  19. AITB

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    I explained that already in a different post. When someone issues a command then it's in their own name unless they say it's in someone else's.

    So, here, for example:

    Jesus did not say "in the name of the LORD, come out of him!" therefore he was casting out the demons in his own name.

    Helen/AITB
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

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    And Michael DID NOT say 'I rebuke you in the NAME of the Lord'!

    He said:

    The LORD rebuke thee

    God Bless
     

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