Sealed until the day of redemption

HP: These questions come to mind. Can a seal be broken? We are sealed, but is this not a warning that we can grieve away the Holy Spirit much the same as one would grieve away a close friend? How do we hold the knowledge of our being sealed? Is it not by faith? Can one safely have faith in their sealing if they are in possession of an evil conscience? Can one remain sealed if in fact the Holy Spirit would be grieved away due to unrepented of sin?

It would appear to me that to be sealed is to be marked or accounted as a believer. It would seem evident to me from Scripture that in fact one can indeed make shipwreck of their faith, and depart from the Living God. 1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

In such a case the backslider would no longer carry the seal of God upon them. Having turned from the faith the backslider has broken the covenant of the sealing that is promised to the faithful in this verse and has no longer this promise of being sealed as their hope. Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

In a walk of faith we need to give earnest heed to this warning. 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

Nicholas, if you want to read some good eternal security stuff try John Piper and John MacAuthur. John Piper came out of the freewill belief. He has a book on Romans chapter 9 that is supposed to be a great read, though I haven't read it yet. I understand no freewiller has been able to refute him so far on that book. I take the being sealed stuff literally. We are either sealed or not. I showed you a bunch of verses that deal with the eternal security side. I know me and I know how I was before God saved me. I have nothing in me that will hold me. I see no other option than God holding me.

EDIT: I have noticed you on a couple of boards and would love to have more people with your zeal to know God at our Church.

 

HP: It is true that there is nothing, in and of ourselves that will motivate us to remaining faithful. God has promised never to leave or forsake us. His Spirit continually influences our wills. Just the same, the minute you leave man and his will out of the equation, you can end up with nothing short of deterministic fatalism. Morality and accountability are destroyed under such a system as you and the men you recomend paint.

Certainly we will not remain faithful due to our own efforts, but neither will we remain faithful apart from our wills formation of intents to accept the influences from God in the formation of intents of benevolence towards God and man.

 

HP: I can appreciate your comment. :thumbsup: I am over twice as old as you and am certainly still learning on a daily basis. None of us have all of the answers. Just the same, amidst all the questions and uncertainties that we might have, there is some truth that we can be absolutely certain of. God blames and punishes man for disobedience and praises him for obedience. This is irrefutable evidence that man is no puppet nor a mere victim of his circumstances. It is irrefutable evidence that man has a free will to choose and must retain ones freewill as long as he is a moral agent and is to be held accountable and blamed or praised for his actions. Hold fast to that truth.



If OSAS is true, man has no free will. If man cannot do something other than what he does under the same set of circumstances, no choice can be predicated. If man is aware of anything concerning himself, he is aware of his ability to either choose to obey or choose to disobey. Deny as one wills that free will exists, man’s conscience testifies undeniably to the fact he has a free will, and can do despite any moral influence upon him.

 

I am in no way smart enough to debate this subject. Arminianism vs. Calvinism will never be answered this side of Heaven. I't been going on for hundreds of years. HP, Maybe you could try the refute option of Piper's book. I would love to read stuff like that so it would better help people to learn a few options on the C/A debate. I understand no Arminian theologian has done the job yet.

 

HP: I have a proposition for you. Put his arguments in your own words and we can debate them on the list. I will do my best as time is available. Fair enough?

 

I have no desire whatsoever to debate the C/A stuff. I am sure John could debate his stance much better than I.

 

HP: I have tried to address several men concerning the books they have written. It seems that when one comes to the point of writing books that they are all but unapproachable. I have chosen to spend my efforts conversing and debating with men and women on discussion lists. Who knows. Possibly I will feel led to debate him personally if the opportunity arises. Invite him to the Baptist Board! I would be happy to debate with him here.

 

That is, imo, one of the best scriptures of the hundreds that support the truth of our complete eternal security.

It not only clearly proclaims our security...

But it also acknowledges that our security is not disturbed by our imperfections and problems...

Its a glorious promise, and is supported by so many other passages of scripture.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

Quote:
"Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

HP: Hundreds? Why stop there? Why not make it thousands. All it takes is a few presuppositions read into the text and I am certain one could almost any text do. :smilewinkgrin:

Quote:
"....whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."


HP: How does this portion of the text support complete eternal security? Does it say that a promise cannot be revoked, a seal broken by the individuals refusal to follow the Lord, or do you simply read this into the text?

HP: And how does it do that? Does it state that one cannot turn from their righteousness, or that one cannot make shipwreck of their faith, or one fail the grace of God, or one fall away or depart from God? Again, you seem to be reading into the text what you desire for it to say via presuppositions applied to the text while conveniently ignoring other pertinent truths of Scripture.
Quote:
"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God...,"

HP: Indeed it can be a glorious text and serve to bolster ones faith ‘IF’………. we grieve not the Holy Spirit and follow the admonition we are being warned about.

 

HP,

Why did God not cause it to say...

"Do not grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, and be cut off from His salvation"

instead of...

"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption"



Who could have more deserved to be "cut off" than PETER, who denied even knowing Christ...3 times. Yet he was as secure as can be. The angel mentioned him specifically when he told the women to go and get the disciples.

The prodigal son surely grieved his father greatly, but he was ALWAYS his fathers son. He was never disowned, as his father was looking off into the distance when he came over the horizon. Was that just a stroke of luck? Hardly. He spent every waking out looking at that horizon.

The Ephesians were ingaging in all manner of inappropriate behavior and attitudes. Lying. Stealing. Crude language and jesting. Fornication.

Yet they were told that they should stop because...

God didnt tell them they could get to be children of the Light again, "if" they quickly "repent" and "get right" again.

No.

He told them that right then and there, in the midst of the stupid behavior and sinning, they were children of the Light, and they needed to start behaving like one.

When we are born of God we do not become "employees" who can be fired for inproper behavior. We become Gods children. His dearly loved children.

And we are secure in that standing. It will never change. He may chastise and discipline us, because "he who is without chastisement is illegitimate, and not a son"....but we will not be cut off.

God bless,

Mike

 

Me thinks maybe HP is from the same "other" board that I have saw Nicholas on before.


Nicholas, instead of sticking this question down here in obscurity, I would sugest you ask a similar one up in the Baptist Theology threads up top. You will find more balance to your questions. There are OSAS people up there along with people you might recognize. At least, your questions will get seen. You are a baptist, so you are allowed to post there.

 

Refute this verse HP, it comes from the same book freewillers live and die by.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Not saved for a while, then not saved, then saved, then not saved. Its says He saves forever. Now how is He able to save forever? Because He always lives to make intercession for them.
(1Pe 1:3 NASB) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

(1Pe 1:4 NASB) to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

(1Pe 1:5 NASB) who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I don't see anything about our will in being saved here. What I see is this. God, in His mercy, He caused us to be saved. What happens next? That inheritance that we haved because we are saved is imperishable, undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven. Nothing there about being reserved until you break the reservation. Protected by God himself not man. Through faith. We head to the book that tell us about that faith and where it comes from.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
By grace through faith. How'd you get that faith? The next words plainly state it wasn't you. It was a gift from God. Not because of your work. Because of God's work. You keep talking about man breaking that seal. I know that when God seals something, it is sealed. I don't debate the C/A stuff, but OSAS is not necessarily a calvinist view. Plenty of non-cals believe in the holding power of God.

(Jud 1:24 NASB) Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

(Jud 1:25 NASB) to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Now is He able to keep you from stumbling or not? The Book says so.

(Joh 10:27 NASB) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

(Joh 10:28 NASB) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

(Joh 10:29 NASB) "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

(Joh 10:30 NASB) "I and the Father are one."
Self explanatory. Who gave them? God. No one, not even the person saved can take them from Jesus. Why? Because God, who is greater thal all, gave them to Him. He said he gives them eternal life, not eternal maybe.
As an old preacher friend of mine says( as with many others), "Well Glory."

I like what Hank Lindstrom has to say about it.

ETERNAL SECURITY

"Can a person who has been saved lose his salvation? This question has been a perplexing question to many. Maybe you have been questioning the genuineness of your salvation. Are you really saved? Are you really sure?

Although the phrase "eternal security" does not occur in the Bible, phrases that are equivalent do occur. Phrases such as everlasting life, eternal life, eternal salvation, eternal inheritance, eternal redemption, etc. occur dozens and dozens of times throughout the Bible.

Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from that of eternal life or eternal salvation. It is one and the same. In fact, the only salvation God offers to mankind is eternal. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)."

God does not offer probation, but He offers salvation. God does not offer a trial period, but rather, offers to completely save and give eternal life to anyone who responds to His invitation to trust Jesus Christ as his or her only hope of heaven.

Consider the alternative, that you could lose your salvation. By virtue of the fact that you could lose it, would mean that keeping salvation would depend upon your efforts or actions to keep it. In other words, a person who says that he can lose his salvation for whatever reason is in reality saying that he is trusting in human works to save him. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace (mercy) are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Salvation is not of works and therefore a person who is trusting in his works is not and will not be saved. What are we saying? Plainly stated: a person who says he can lose his salvation is not saved. Or he is thoroughly confused and lacks assurance of salvation.

If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved. Let me say it again. If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved.

Salvation, as taught in the Bible, is a present possession, received at the time of the new birth or acceptance of Christ as one's personal Savior, and is kept secure or eternal by God's power. Consider such references as John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 10:28; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:14; I Peter 1:4-5.

Jesus Christ made the promise in John 6:37 that He would never cast out anyone who had trusted Him as Savior for any reason. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." He meant exactly that. There is no circumstance or instance that would cause Christ to cast a saved person aside.

Some have said to me, "Okay, Christ won't cast me out, but I can cast myself out." This is impossible. Read with me John 6:39 where Jesus said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that all which he hath given, I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day." Jesus promises that He will never lose anyone who has come to him for salvation and that this is the Father's will.

If any one saved person were ever lost, then Jesus Christ would be a liar because, He said in John 6:39 that He would not lose one. If just one saved person in all of history were lost, then Jesus Christ would be a liar.

Praise the Lord that Jesus Christ is a Savior who will deliver on what He has promised. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (possesses now) eternal life (John 6:47)." Jesus Christ promises eternal life as a present possession to all those who believe (trust) in Him.

The heart of all the misunderstanding concerning this subject is the fact that human works or merit have zero to do with salvation. Many Scriptures make it so clear that we are saved by faith and not by works. For example: John 3:18; Romans 3:24-28; Romans 4;5; Ephesians 2:8-9 and so on.

In addition to this, there are many clear Scriptures which teach that anyone who is trusting in works (church membership, baptism, confirmation, living the Christian life, etc.) in addition to faith in Christ will not be saved (Romans 11:6; and Galatians 5:2-4). Thus we are to trust in Christ only to be saved.

The work of salvation was finished on the cross by Jesus Christ himself (Hebrews 1:3). If we want to be saved, then we must believe that Jesus Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross, and receive it as God's free gift (Romans 6:23).

"I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him (Ecclesiastes 3:14)." (See also Romans 8:38-39.)

After we are saved, we should live for Christ out of love and gratitude for all He has done for us. We will be rewarded for faithful service or suffer the loss of rewards for not serving the Lord, but we will be eternally saved (Corinthians 3:11-15). Also, if we live in rebellion we will still be saved, but God will chasten us in this life and might take us home to heaven prematurely. (See Hebrews 12:6-8; Corinthians 11:30-32.)

Salvation is by grace through faith. It is a free gift, and is wholly without works (Romans 3:27-28; 4:1-8; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9). The divine order is first salvation, then works (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8).

"Blessed Assurance" is a favorite hymn of many who claim to be saved. But it is only wishful thinking to those who believe they can be saved today and lost tomorrow.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39)." A saved person can know and be absolutely assured of his or her salvation. Nothing can undo what God has finished (Ecclesiastes 3:14).

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life (I John 5:13)."

For another good read about this subject, try "The Gospel according to Jesus" by John MacAuthur. I have read this one, it is eye opening.

 

HP: Let me just ask you a question and see if you, believing as you obviously do, could give us the argument of those not believing in OSAS.

Does ‘being able’ to do something mean that everything one can do will in the end be accomplished? If in fact one draws near to God does that indicate that one could not depart from the Living God, make shipwreck of the faith, or leave ones first love?

Is the list starting to get the picture of some of the presuppositions one using this verse to support OSAS approaches this text and ‘hundreds more’ with? I certainly do.

 

If God is the one that is able and in many verses says he will, then He who is able will do it. We could get into a C/A talk with the last part of your post, "If in fact one draws near to God does that indicate that one could not depart from the Living God", I'm not willing to go there. You are using "what if's" as your arguments, use a Bible. I could come up with any number of what if's for any given verse. That doesn't negate what God actually says in the verse. I think maybe you followed Nicholas from one board that totally believes in "losing salvation" to post the same arguments he would get there. Why don't we go upstairs where there are more OSAS people reading the threads? "General Baptist Discussions and Baptist Theology" and get more people involved. Most people upstairs never even bother to look down here.

 

HP: So now we have a new term for any warning God gives to us in Scripture. It is called a “what if.” If the reader will notice I only used real warnings from Scripture spoken to believers. With the presuppositions you are obviously holding to you ‘cannot go there,’ the ‘there’ being the Word of God and its clear warnings of departing from the Living God, making shipwreck of the faith, etc. The only way one can maintain a sure OSAS stance is to ignore or refuse to heed the warnings and conditions God places upon the believer.

HP: What right do you or anyone else have to malign or ignore the clear warnings in scripture, and imply that they are simply meaningless manufactured ‘what if’s?’ If only we would utilize the whole Word of God instead of simply applying your presuppositions to every text.

HP: What a ridiculous fantasy you are allowing to occupy your mind. I have not followed anyone to this list nor has anyone on this list followed me here. I have never to my knowledge conversed with any on this list from any other list with the ‘possible’ exception of one that I have not conversed with for months nor do I know them personally. Even this one possibility is only a possibility that it is the same individual I once spoke to on another list. I have not in any way tried to confirm it.

At any rate, dream on.

HP: Because I do not make the rules and choose to abide by the rules to the best of my understanding. I cannot in good faith say that I am a Baptist….. or any other denomination for that matter. Why don’t you go upstairs and give an open invitation to those desiring to debate the issues to where the owners have the list have asked us to stay? I would look forward to an opportunity to debate with any of them as time permits.

 

Forgive me then, I thought you were coming from his "home" board. The "whats ifs" I spoke of were from this.
"Does ‘being able’ to do something mean that everything one can do will in the end be accomplished? If in fact one draws near to God does that indicate that one could not depart from the Living God, make shipwreck of the faith, or leave ones first love?"

I said there many verses where God say He is able and will hold us. I also showed several verses where He says He would, none of which you bother to speak on. When I said I wouldn't go there I meant the "If in fact one draws near to God does that indicate that one could not depart from the Living God" could end up being a C/A debate. I meant I wouldn't get into the C/A stuff. We are talking about OSAS. I only pointed that a "could not depart" stance could be made for a calvinist to take a stance on. There were more verses in my post, feel free to go through them, Most were spoken by our Savior, not me.

 

HP: Thank you. You are forgiven. :thumbs:

HP: It does no good to just jump to more Scriptures until we answer honestly the questions we have for each other on the one we are discussing. Why not simply answer the question?