Second Verse Can women do this?

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by SaggyWoman, Sep 6, 2004.

  1. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman
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    I quote Dr. Bob once again.

    When God gave special ministerial gifts (Eph 4) as a blessing to the churches, there were
    Apostles
    Prophets
    Evangelists
    Pastor-Teachers

    Today we have some doing the work of apostles (missions is very close). Some proclaiming truth. Some gifted for evangelism.


    Can women, hence, be apostles?
     
  2. GODzThunder

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    some of the greatest missionaries I know have been women (I firmly believe that a woman cannot serve as pastor) but these women work more like soul winners, great soul winners at that).
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Women cannot pastor but other than that, Sagmeister, there is no boundary. Many women on the mission field are working with women's ministries, children's ministries, educational, support, medical, etc. Even preaching.

    But just to be true to the Scripture - apostle is a masculine noun. So is prophet. So is evangelist. So is pastor/teacher.

    All masculine. There ARE feminine forms of these words (like the daughters of Philip who were prophetesses) if the Holy Spirit had so wanted to teach.

    Sorry.
     
  4. SaggyWoman

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    So, female missionaries are Apostlesses?
     
  5. DavidsAngel

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    I would have to agree that women can be Apostles. I'm wondering if Mary and Martha might be considered those, Actually I really wonder what happened to those two women. I guess that is a post for the Bible study dept hehe
     
  6. Johnv

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    Presuming a scriptural ban on woman pastors (which need not be debated here), I see no scriptural ban on woman as apostles/disciples. Dr Bob is correct that "apostle" is a masculine noun, but I don't think that this in and of itself bans women from such.
     
  7. DavidsAngel

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    I wouldn't think so either Johnv. What i'm wondering is when this was written, the fact that women were just used to being banned from serving in the church, and that it was a male driven society. Why there were a few women who spoke and taught, it wasn't as wide as it is today. Do you think that could possibly be the reason that it's worded in this way.

    That raises the question, if Paul had for knowledge about the times we live in now. I'm not counting revalation. I'm talking just society in general. The biggest diffrence between now and then is the Woman roles. Most everything else has stayed the same.
     
  8. Karen

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    Dr. Bob,
    Your distinction between pastoring and preaching would be unusual in the SBC churches I have been in.

    And I'm not sure I understand why you make that distinction. Unless you are viewing the pastor as THE person who makes decisions, at least most of them. In many Baptist churches, the pastor is not viewed as the decision-maker, the congregation is. This is something that many IFB churches seem to be moving away from.
    And I was raised on this as a very key Baptist distinctive.

    When the congregation is seen as the decision-maker, women are most often not allowed to be pastors BECAUSE they would be preaching, then.

    In other words, pastor = preacher and helps carry out the will of the congregation.

    Karen
     
  9. Thankful

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    Just a thought, when I was taught proper grammar, the masculine noun and pronoun were used for men and were also used for men and women if the sex was not clear. When the feminine noun or pronoun was used then it was always considered used for women.
     
  10. SaggyWoman

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    In other words, pastor = preacher and helps carry out the will of the congregation.

    As quoted by Karen.

    What about the will of God? I can carry out the will of the congregation on my own, as a female.
     
  11. Johnv

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    As in "Peace on Earth, Good will towards men". Yes, you bring up a very good point, and generally speaking, you're right. I don't think the Holy Spirit's intent was to exclude women in this context. [​IMG]
     
  12. SaggyWoman

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    Peace on earth, good will to women.

    Rise up, oh women of God.
     
  13. Johnv

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    I would disagree with that. A Pastor is shepherd of a flock. A preacher is one who preaches. The Great Commission commands all people (not just men) to preach.
     
  14. DavidsAngel

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    I'd have to agree. Christ would have to have known the impact of his teachings on both men and women. Beings as he never excluded women and most generally invited them to hear his sermons.

    That being the case. I'm sure he knew that women would want to take an active role eventually.

    We are having trouble determining that role Biblically because of the word usage. I beleive what thankful says that MEN means human, all men and woman. Our race.
     
  15. SaggyWoman

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    I don't think a pastor or a preacher's job is to carry out the will of the congregation.
     
  16. Thankful

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    I understand what you are saying, Saggy, but if the pastor does not carry out the will of the congregation, he usually has to find another congregation. :(
     
  17. Johnv

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    Thankful, you make a good point. Sure, a leader should lead, but if a leader isn't listening to his flock, he's no leader. A pastor is not synonymous with being a dictator.
     
  18. DavidsAngel

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    I have to agree with Thankful. It's not a point it's a fact what she is saying. If the Pastor and the congragation are NOT in sync the church will not grow and will more than likley fail.
     
  19. Karen

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    Everybody is making lots of good points.
    However, I still think the distinction between pastor and preacher is a recent development in Baptist thought, regardless of whether it is right or wrong.
    For example, not very many years ago, Anne Graham Lotz spoke (preached, if you will) at an SBC pastors' conference in OK. A large number of those pastors turned their chairs around so she preached to their backs, and others walked out.

    Yes, the ultimate goal is for the church and pastor to carry out the will of God. But if you went to Training Union in the 1960's, you were strongly taught that an absolutely key Baptist distinctive was congregational government, not pastor rule. Many of our churches actually seem to have a Presbyterian form of government, whether by one elder or many, although they would not admit it.

    So what I am saying is the things that a pastor is supposed to do that a woman cannot do (rule) is what traditional Baptist thought says a pastor cannot do anyway. Preaching is the traditional distinction.

    Karen

    [ September 11, 2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Karen ]
     

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