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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LadyEagle, Mar 18, 2003.
as I said in the other thread - are we also going to go to war against other states that abuse human rights - China, Korea and Israel for example - do you support us invading them?
If you are going to argue for war on the grounds of human rights violations you should at least be consistant
What InHim2002 said
Yours in Christ
So what you are saying is that if there is one person starving to your left and there are a thousand people starving to your right that you better not feed the person on your left unless you have enough food to feed the people on your right too?
Since when is the fact that there is much suffering in the world mean that we should not stop some small part of it?
Since when is one thing at a time wrong???
In addition, it would be well and fine to try to tackle it all at once, but if we miss the one developing the biological and chemical weapons, none of the other victories would matter in time, right?
I'm very aware that America cannot win for losing right now in the world's opinion, but remember two things:
1. At least we are trying to do something about the terrorists (and most of the rest of you folks complaining are doing what?)
2. As soon as the anti-war people get biological or chemical or other terrorists 'incentives' unleashed on them, who do you think they will run to for help? And then who do you think they will blame for not having done something about those nasty people before?
You people have totally forgotten history? Or did you never learn it? There have been people like Hussein sprinkled through it, like bits of poison. Hitler, Stalin, some of the mad Roman Emporers, and so many others -- they don't stop with a 'little bit.' They are driven by whatever internal demons they have until they have self-destructed. And that part isn't so bad, it's just all the people they slaughter along the way some of us find an objection to.
Tuor - I would question why you pick the one on the left rather than a person on the right.
are you claiming that the rest of the world is doing nothing? there have been no arrests of terrorists outside the USA?
there are only US troops in Afganistan?
That's right Helen - there has never been any terrorism in the UK - I remember well how citizens of the United States kept giving money to the IRA as they blew up British women and children.
I remember growing up in London during the 80's and 90's and seeing people I know lose their sons & daughters to American funded terrorist bombs.
er? - you mean people like Pinocet who murdered several hundred thousand people after the CIA murdered Allend, who was democratically elected, because he was to left-wing for the state department?
how about the graduates of the school of americas - you know, the terrorist training camp that the US government sponsors out in Atlanta
I think any sane person objects to people like that - it just sticks in the throat a bit when on the one hand this is portrayed as a battle for human rights when on the other the US govt is training murderers.
Further I do not understand why this was not an issue before - when the US and other govts (UK, Germany etc) were happily selling Hussain the arms with which to murder his own people, I do not understand why it is not an issue that the US and the UK still supply arms to Indonesia - where they are used to murder people in East Timor.
[ March 18, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]
So you are saying that just because others suffer we should not help out others.
Okay - let me put it another way.
If the US & UK are so concerned with Human Rights why do they supply weapons to regimes that murder their own people?
If Bush is horrified by accounts of torture why does the US government sponsor the training of these people?
Putting it another way, why are the US and UK doing nothing about Mugabe's murderous regime?
Yours in Christ
I am not saying the US is perfect. What I am saying is that the US is getting it right this time. Hopefully it will lead to something better.
If we do nothing, then it won't.
If we worry about making everything right or nothing right at all, then nothing will ever be right. Should the US have fought against Hitler because of the way it treats the Native Americans?
Essentially the rest of the world IS doing nothing! Arresting individuals does nothing to stop what is happening!
When you speak of Americans giving to the IRA, two points:
1. There are many Irish in America. Are they the Americans you are talking about?
2. For those who are/were not Irish, I can guarantee you that the VAST majority had no idea that is what they were actually giving to.
Are you aware that by your words here you are helping contribute to the encouragement of terrorists? Are you actually doing what you think is right, or are you simply having a temper tantrum?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
We did not bomb the very hills out of Afghanistan after 9/11. We allowed Saddam to stay in power after the Gulf War, when he (not us dirty Americans!) invaded a neighboring country, set fire to oil wells (which we put out), and generally commited everything from mass nuisances to mass atrocities.
Yes, our oil interests were at stake.
So were yours.
And now this monster is arming himself to threaten more countries after genocide and incredible murders and atrocities in his own.
What would you have us do? Pat him on the back? Tell him to please be a good boy?
It didn't work.
Spread our forces out among EVERYONE who is a threat?
Yeah, and how the world would holler then! "America wants world domination!"
No we don't. But we'd love to be able to quit guarding our bridges...
We're finishing up something that should have been finished up years ago. Hopefully, it won't take us too long.
About your other complaints -- I don't know enough to know what is true and what is propaganda you have swallowed. I do know from your part about the IRA that you have swallowed a reasonable amount of it, though!
GOod post, Helen
I will continue to wonder what other way there is do do this, or should we become as the ostrich, as have other countries, and pretend that it will not be there if we don't look.
so why are there troops from so many different nations in Afganistan Helen?
Perhaps you should speak to the families of the Canadians killed over there and explain that there sons did 'nothing' in the war on terror.
The simple fact is that the evidence that the USA has produced has not convinced the world that there is a link between Hussain and terrorism.
what an absolutely ridiculous statement.
perhaps produce some evidence that he is a threat and that there are links with terrorism?
then why not do some research - I'll start you off:
Guardian story on the School of Americas
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22school+of+the+Americas%22+war+crimes]google links on the school of the americas[/url]
CNN story on CIA involvement in the murder of Allende
BBC story on American funding of the IRA
but I guess the BBC, CNN etc etc are just printing misinformation aren't they?
Originally posted by InHim2002: perhaps produce
some evidence that he is a threat and that there are links with terrorism?
InHim...You have been given many, many links in many, many different posts, on many, many different threads to prove this.
You are like the proverbial ostrich. If YOU can't see it; no matter how many OTHERS can...it doesn't exist for you.
You have closed your mind on this subject and no amount of links will convince you otherwise.
One cannot show the truth to one with deaf ears and blind eyes.
You don't want to be shown the truth. You just want to argue and you will not stop with this nonsense, and feigning ignorance until we all agree with you. NOT !
InHim -- would the Canadians be there if they were not helping us? Would anyone be there ON THEIR OWN, without us?
On the other hand, we would be there no matter what. We deeply appreciate the help and moral support of the Canadians and Australians and those other nations who are backing us now. They are fine people. But the truth of the matter is that if we had not led in this, they would not be involved.
And yes, attitudes and words like yours are only offering encouragement to the terrorists, who see that there are divisions in the stand against them. That is not ridiculous at all. If there were to see a truly united front by the world, it would be a lot easier to stop them.
And, lastly, you want HOW MUCH proof? The last time the French asked for that, they got it, marching across their borders under a Nazi flag. I'm not up for that kind of proof, thank you. The fact that the very chemical weapons Hussein has sworn he does not have are now being distributed to his troops is enough. The fact that the man's regime is not only capable of, but encouraging the incredible atrocities we see documented consistently is proof enough of the mindset of this man. What makes you think he would stop with his own people?
You are a Christian. I encourage you to visit a Muslim country and proclaim that. I encourage you to go to a Muslim country and talk against them the way you have the freedom to talk against us over here.
You would be silenced rather quickly.
Enjoy your freedom while you have it. If we do not confront and defeat Saddam now, as well as do our level best to control weapons of mass destruction and minds of mass torture around the world, you will not have that freedom long.
It seems to me that InHim2002 is a perfect example of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Any enemy of the US will end up being a good guy in InHim2002's eyes.
I note this is rather different than your original stance that every other nation is 'doing nothing' anyhow, of course the USA would be there - they were the ones attacked!
Had it not been for 9/11 would they be there? the answer is, obviously, no.
and you would not have led in it if they had not attacked you.
i don't agree.
how about SOME - so far the US & UK have offered forged documents as evidence for the suppose Iraqi nuclear programme, a plagarised phd thesis as evidence of a link to terrorists, some blurred photos as evidence of wmd - where is there any actual evidence?
straw man coupled with a slippery slope - quite an achievement!
I don't believe that he has the ability to do anything at the moment, what I do see and know is that the UK & USA are selling arms and giving aid to some of the worse regimes in the world. I know there is no talk of war against other countries that are starving, torturing and murdering their own people.
I know that the provides training for terrorists to operate in south america.
I really cannot see what actual threat Hussein is - and neither can the rest of the world.
where have I said that I think he is a 'good guy'?
If he is not a 'good guy', then why do you have problems with removing him?
Either you think he is a good guy or your view is so jaded that you think bad guys should rule the world.
Diverting attention away from the original post about Saddam is nothing more than a ploy to argue about other side issues. An old game, seen in many threads throughout this board. In fact, it's pretty predictable. Just a cybergame. (yawn)
Wake me up if there is a "fresh" point of view from the other side and not the same old rhetoric we've heard here many times before. (yawn)
Actually, it makes me want to vomit. I made the mistake of reading this right after luncheon.
But it doesn't inspire me to continue a spiral of violence, no.