Seed of Abraham

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. Grasshopper

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    Our good friend Mr. Murphy posted this on a thread that is now closed, reguarding who the land of Palestine belongs to:

    "Since he and apparently some others are confused about the Bible I thought I would submit this. 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
    15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
    16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
    17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
    18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.
    Gen 13:14-18

    Now lets let scripture interpret scripture.

    Paul says this:

    Gal.3
    6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[1] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

    Romans 2
    28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

    Romans 9
    7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[1] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

    So Mr. Murphy are you a "seed" of Abraham? Or is it the people in Israel who have rejected Christ?
     
  2. Sola-Scriptura

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    Absolutely, grasshopper!
    We must never interpret the New Testament in light of the old, but always the Old in light of the New! By the way, for you consistent literal interpreters, God said to Abram "all the land that thou seest I will give you and your seed. What could Abram see, maybe 12-15 miles in each direction? God said the land he could see is what He would give.
    Let's trust the New Testament scriptures to show us who the promises were made to. They were to the "Seed" which is Christ. Those who are in Christ are now heirs according to the promise.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    There is some confusion here. I didn't see the previous thread but I will comment on this. The seed of Abraham with respect to the AC is defined for us in Gen 15 where it is said to be those who come from his loins. It is clear that God had in mind Abraham's genetic seed. We should not have to argue over that.

    The NT passages clearly talk about something else, those who are included in the blessing of the gospel. The NT passages do not suggest that the AC was done away with. In fact, Gal 3 affirms that it was not ... the promise was not made void. It is simply addressing a different issue.

    As for sola scriptura's comments about the land that he could see, all of that land that he could see is given to Abraham. That did not mean that land he could not see was not given to him. That would be a contradiction of what God said in Gen 18 about the land from the river in the North (Euphrates) to the river of Egypt (either the Nile or the Wadi el Arish) being given to him and his descendants after him.

    Don't make the promises of God null and void because it doesn't fit your theology. Change your theology to fit the promises of God.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    Don't make the promises of God null and void because it doesn't fit your theology. Change your theology to fit the promises of God.

    Good advice.


    Joshua 21
    43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
     
  5. Sola-Scriptura

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    In regard to the land, I was being facetious. Grasshopper gave a good verse regarding the physical seed and the land. In regard to the Abrahamic Covenant I didn't say it was made void but that it has been fulfilled in Christ. Gal 3:14-16 says the promise comes upon the Gentiles through the true Seed--Christ. Abraham himself dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country (Heb. 11:9-10)not looking for a physical fulfillment, but looking for the "city of the living God" which Heb.12:22 says we have come to by faith. Then at the end of chapter 11 it says all those who died in faith in the Old Testament "did not recieve the promise but God having provided something better FOR US... Paul repeatedly shows the fulfillment of the AC under in New Covenant. "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all." (Romans 4:16)
     
  6. fgm

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    Abraham is in the direct seed line of physical Israel[Luke 3:34]as well he is the father of the family of faith because through the House of David came Jesus Christ.Luke chapter 3 has the son by son seed from Adam to Jesus Christ[Jesus being adopted by Joseph]Abraham was justified by faith,not the law which had not yet been given.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    While I hesitate to insult your intelligence by having to remind you of the obvious, those promises of the land are restated centuries after this occasion. Additionally, the promise of the land was an "'olam" promise ... a forever promise, not a temporary one. The Israelites lost the land because of their disobedience ot the Law, but as Paul reminds us in Gal 3, the Law did not make the promise void.

    So I restate my assertion that one's theology must be adjusted to the text, not the other way around.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    How is Gen 15:18 fulfilled in Christ?? He is a person, not a piece of real estate. It is impossible for Christ to equal the land from the river Euphrates to the River of Egypt (unless you are a pantheist of some sort I suppose).

    All true but irrelevant to the AC. The Abrahamic convenant consisted of three parts: the land, the seed, and the blessing. You cannot simply do away with part of it because your theology says to. That doesn't work.

    That is not the NC. When you study the NC passages in Jer and Ezek, you will find that the NC is the fulfillment of hte AC, but that it has nothing to do with the church. We participate in the blessings of the NC. We are not the ones with whom the NC was made.

    We have to get back to the text. I fear that too many people are blindly excepting the word of someone without bothering to see what the text actually says. Of course, none of this is new ... it is just a rehash of old threads ...
     
  9. Sola-Scriptura

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    1 Corinthians 11:25
    In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2 Corinthians 3:6
    who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant , not of the letter but of the Spirit;[3:6 Or [spirit] ] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Hebrews 9:15
    And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant , and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    We participate in the blessings of the New Covenant but are not part of the New Covenant? Your Dispensationalism will not let the New Testament writers show you how the fulfillment of those promises have taken place in Christ. He is the object of the fulfillment not literal physical Israel!
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Where did Christ fulfill the land promise?? Where did Christ restore the house of Judah and Israel to the land?? Did I miss something?? Did the NT writers fail to record such a momentous event for us?? After all, that is exactly what JEremiah said would happen. Are you saying that God, speaking through the prophet JEremiah lied?? How do your reckon this?? If you can show me these things from Scripture, I will be the first to change my position. All I need is scriptural evidence.

    Jeremiah 31:31-40 (among many other passages) is an explicit refutation of your position, if you will let the writers of Scripture show you what they meant. You blame me for ignoring Scripture but you don't seem to deal much with it. Not a verse that you gave above is even remotely contradictory to anything I have said. Deal with Jeremiah 31 for starters and then we can move on from there. If you are going to talk about the NC, then you must define the NC the way that Scripture does, not the way that your favorite theologians do.

    I must admit that your use of Scripture brings a smile to my face. You quote a bunch of passages, provide no explanation, and expect us to believe that they say what you think they do. All the while, you do not make an attempt to place these Scriptures in the larger context of Scripture. You isolate them. That is the only way your position will stand.
     
  11. Sola-Scriptura

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    First of all brother, I appreciate your passion for the scripture! You uphold His word and look to it for the truth. By the way, some of my "favorite theologians" agree with you and not me on this. However, let's let the New Testament interpret the Old, not look in the New Testament for what we think should be the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.
    Jer.31:33 says God puts His law in the heart of these New Cov. recipients.
    Compare with 2 Corinthians 3:
    3clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
    4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant , not of the letter but of the Spirit;[1] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Jer. 31:33 says I will be their God, they will be my people in reference to this NC group. Compare with 2 Cor.6:16
    16And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[2] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

    "I will dwell in them
    And walk among them.
    I will be their God,
    And they shall be My people."[3]
    Also Heb.8:10,
    10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    Read Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 with 1 Peter 2:9-10.
    Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel
    Shall be as the sand of the sea,
    Which cannot be measured or numbered.
    And it shall come to pass
    In the place where it was said to them,
    "You are not My people,'[4]
    There it shall be said to them,
    "You are sons of the living God.'
    Hosea 2:23 23Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;[6]Then I will say to those who were not My people,[7]
    "You are My people!'
    And they shall say, "You are my God!"'

    1 Peter 2:9-10
    9But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
     
  12. Graceforever

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    "15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
    16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered."


    Why is this so hard to understand?

    Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Could not be any clearer than that, brethren….

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    This is as plain as your nose on my face….

    Romans 9: 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    B]Here is where the boat leaves the legalists, the millennial people, etc….[/B]


    13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    [
    13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

    Don’t stop reading…

    Romans 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

    [ June 27, 2003, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Graceforever ]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Sola Scriptura,

    None of those verses contradict anything I have said. You still haven’t dealt with the reality of Jer 31 which explicitly identifies the NC as being made with the nation of Israel, those people whose fathers broke the Old covenant (the Mosaic Covenant). Our fathers did not break that covenant; therefore, the NC is not made with us. The NT does not contradict that in anyway.

    Graceforever,

    Several major problems:

    It’s not. That is why I wonder how you missed it. You see two different promises there, one about the land, and one about the seed. It is not the same promise. Gal 3:29 simply talks about spiritual seed, those who have the kind of faith that Abraham had. It does not talk about genetic seed. The genetic seed is the focus of the OT promise. You cannot simply do away with the OT because you don’t like what it teaches.

    Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Think through this and you will see where you went wrong. You brought you supposition into it, rather than simply reading the text. To say that not all Israel is Israel is to say that all genetic Israel is not saved. It has nothing to do with gentiles. That is plainer than the nose on your face. It is as plain as the words on the page.

    The bottom line is that you have not offered even one word of proof to support your position. Israel is a nation, determined by genetic seed from the loins of Abraham (Gen 15:4). You cannot simply ignore that truth. Abraham tried the non-genetic route because he was 100 and the body was old and he had no seed. That would have been the custom of the ANE – get a slave to be your heir. But God corrected him – he would have an heir of his own physical seed and that heir would be the focus of the AC.

    I say as I said before, this goes right to the heart of the promises and truthfulness of God. We dare not trifle with it. The NT does not contradict the OT. We should not allow our theology to make it that way.
     
  14. fgm

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    God[Jesus]did not cut down the original family tree and plant another one.He grafted us,the Gentiles,through Jesus Christ,into His family tree called Israel.[Romans chapter 11]Faith,faith,and more faith has always been the access to the family of God.Noah,Abraham,Moses,David,and now each one of us.The law or physical bloodline did not save people in the Old Covenant,faith in the blood did.In Eygpt,Israel[Hebrews] were saved by the blood painted on the doorposts of their dwellings during the first Passover.This is a model of what Jesus Christ did for each one of us who believe and receive his sacrifice.[He has painted his own blood on the doorposts of our souls].God does not have 2 seperate families,He is just letting the Gentiles as a whole lead his family at this time in eternity.We are all one Israel,the church is Israel.Israel is a nation of people through Jacob's 12 sons,not a geographic location.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    So which is it?? You have made two contradictory statements here.
     
  16. Sola-Scriptura

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    Hebrews says "Today is the day of salvation" and salvation under the New Covenant is right now for both Jew and Gentile together. Are we to tell the Jews that the 7 year Tribulation is when they will be converted? No, the scripture says that they are to be provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles recieving grace and then be grafted back in to the olive tree again in the present age, not some future one.
    Romans 11:11-14 says:
    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy , salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
    13For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, If by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
    Paul said this whole scenario of provoking the Jews to jealousy through the gentile church began even in his day. Are the Jews to be saved through some Jewish evangelists in the Tribulation period or by some "Left Behind" video? No, Jew and Gentile will be saved in the same age by the same grace through the same faith in the same High Priest. No wonder Paul breaks out into worship in verse 33. He is overwhelmed by God's incredible plan.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    But I repeat that God's dealing with Jews in this age through the church and making them one with the Gentiles did not annul his often repeated promise to the Jews as a nation. That, I believe, is the difference between you and I. What you have said is included in what I believe. But I think you have omitted a very important part of Scripture by your position.
     
  18. fgm

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    So which is it?? You have made two contradictory statements here. </font>[/QUOTE]No contradictions here as Jacob's name was changed to Israel.Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah,House of David,house of Israel.We the church have been grafted into Jacob[Israel]
     
  19. fgm

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    So which is it?? You have made two contradictory statements here. </font>[/QUOTE]No contradictions here as Jacob's name was changed to Israel.Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah,house of David,house of Israel.We the church have been grafted into Jacob[Israel]
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    Did you read your statement???

    You said:

    1. We are all one Israel,the church is Israel.
    2. Israel is a nation of people through Jacob's 12 sons,not a geographic location.

    The church is not a nation through Jacob's 12 sons. The church is made up of people from all nations. You made two contradictory statements. Which do you believe? Is Israel the church or a nation of the descendants of Jacob?

    The answer is that your latter statement is true. Every use in Scripture of "Israel" refers to the ethnic descendants of Abraham through Jacob, whether truly saved or not. The church is distinctly different. Gal 3 teaches there is no longer Jew or Gentile in the church.
     

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