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Seminaries Face Economic Turndown

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Ministry is far more important than studying law. It involves the souls of men and women. I have seen too many ignorant unknowingly mislead people. So why not be very well trained and prepared for what God has called you to do?

    Think of all the money Paul made while in prison. Ministry is about godly passion not about a job. The fact is that I have reached more people when I was not pastoring than when I was. When you do not pastor the antagonists do not come around. They do want to be a part of what God is doing but rather create trouble.
     
  2. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    Some denominations, albiet not baptist require Ordination exams. I disagree again, while there is no place like the courtroom, there is no place like many aspects of ministry, its more diverse with different difficulties. The difficulty with peoples lives, the appologetics of belief, and different social problems just to name a few. I used Law school as an anaology that ministry training should be rigorous. That is not an inferiority complex, ministers are dealing with peoples lives and the Holy Bible, lawyers are dealing with lawsuits it just doesn't compare.
     
  3. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I agree ATS, and DE are only part of the problems with seminaries and the financial situation.
     
  4. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Ordination exams are determined by the denomination. If a denomination wishes to specify certain requirements for seminary training (many do), then they may do so.

    Legal training is qualitatively different from ministry training. Any Christian is going to read the Bible. Biblical training in seminary therefore isn't necessarily starting from scratch. Law school explores a totally different field. I guarantee that the average citizen isn't immersing himself in torts (or even casually looking into them).

    Let's just be real--the average lawyer is probably going to be more intelligent than the average pastor, just as the average PhD student in a seminary is probably going to be more intelligent than the average Bible college student. Why? The standards required for entry into the respective fields weed out less qualified applicants.

    Sure, we can make ministry training incredibly rigorous, and we can heavily restrict ordination for only the most rigorously prepared. If we do that, however, we are going to be facing a major shortage in ordained ministers.

    Playing the difficulty/rigor game can become absurd rather quickly. Why write 10 pages when we can demand 50? Why 50 when 500? Why not just require a student to write a dissertation for every course? Why not require the PhD for ordination?
     
  5. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    An attorney will be more intelligent in fields of law, but does the average citizen deal with issues regarding the JEDP theory, synoptic problem, Ridaction critisism, or the Hebrew/Greek languages. Seminary is not for the average citizen, it is for those called to ministry, just as law school is for those who wish to be attorneys. Some classes in seminaries require 50 page papers, I had to write one in Christian Tradition. If I wanted to become an attorney, I'm sure I would study Torts, Criminal Law, Contracts, etc. Instead, I wish to be the best minister I can be and that includes the rigor of Seminary.
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    When I was in seminary was a student who sat next to me and wanted to be a better Sunday School teacher. He was a businessman who worked for a large company but wanted to be an excellent teacher at church. Most of those who graduated from seminary will no longer be employed in church work after ten years.
     
  7. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I guess I was speaking in general terms, but your last sentence interests me. Where do you draw such conclusions?
     
  8. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    I studied and debated those issues, long before I took my first class.

    The point is, the "Ministry" should not be restrictive, where only those capable of a high GPA or worse, only the rich, are able to attend. The idea of uprooting and dragging future Pastor's families through poverty, and leaving the small poor churches which are aiding them in financial ruin, is ridiculous when DE is just as effective.

    Lets take an example. I am not the brightest person in the world. I am probably what most would call "average" intelligence. I am currently taking classes at SATS.
    I have three children, a wife, and a full time evangelistic ministry.

    Now, were I to go to a "brick and mortar" Seminary, instead of SATS or Liberty, I would be forced to shut down my ministry, meaning several hundred people a week that are now hearing the gospel, would no longer hear it; I would be forced to uproot my family to Kentucky, or some other area where there is a theologically acceptable seminary. I would be forced to TRY to find secular work (which in this economy, would be difficult), not only to pay my bills and feed my family, but to pay an exorbitant tuition.

    Further, I have seen sample work from one of the Big Six seminaries. Frankly, the rigor would be LESS than what I am subjected to now. I would be able to get by with "average" (for me) work: which is not accepted at my current seminary.

    Let's put it another way. I just completed a class in Greek. I know the same case endings that are taught in expensive brick and mortar seminaries. I know the same tense forms taught in brick and mortar seminaries. I can read the same amount of Greek, as students at other "brick and mortar" seminaries. In fact, I was able to study more, due to the extra time not having to work extra hours every week to pay my tuition, than more traditional students probably were. While they were flipping burgers at 10:30 at night, to make a few extra bucks, I was going over my vocabulary words a few more times. While they had little time for extracurricular study of scripture, I was memorizing the Book of James and Romans.

    Further, the SAME programs, textbooks, etc., were used by me, and students at Gordon Cromwell, for instance.

    Quite simply the whole attitude of "Your DE degree isn't is good" is academic snobbery, which has no place in the heart of a Christian, IMO. Many very knowledgeable, successful men of God, have done very well with their DE degree.
     
  9. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Indeed. Seminary is not for the average citizen, but seminary also serves a different demographic than the average law school.

    Seminary attracts those who feel called to ministry or who want to study religion. Not everyone is going to be an "A" student, and the admissions policies of most seminaries reflect this.

    Let's put it this way. A 3.0 from State U with average test scores will get you into a lot of seminaries, but it will get you a lot of rejection letters from law schools.

    Don't confuse me--I'm not saying that we should make seminary easy. Far from it--I think that seminary should be challenging. However, not everyone that God calls to minister is going to be a great intellectual. You will have some good men and women with good hearts who love God and his people but who would not have the ability to complete a course of study in law.

    Your reference to a 50 page paper is of note, but, truthfully, lengthy papers are often more challenging in terms of endurance than in difficulty. Some of the most difficult assignments I completed in school were brief.

    My point is simply this: seminaries admit more "average" students than law schools or medical schools do. If you want to run a seminary like a law school, you have to be more selective in admissions.
     
  10. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    This is your best point, and it is also why I think seminaries should not try to "keep up with the Joneses" (law schools and medical schools) in terms of academics. Seminary shouldn't be easy, but it shouldn't be so hard that a student without a 3.85 GPA or better wouldn't be able to pass.

    Ministry has a high enough burnout rate as-is. If churches want to continue having seminary-trained ministers, they need to make sure that seminary is accessible and affordable.
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The convention I was in reported that. However it is possible that is not true for others.
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    double post
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Ministry is restrictive. It is restricted to giftedness and what God chooses for each person. I think leadership in churches should be restricted to those who have proven themselves in terms of making disciples and proven leadership.

    A lot of churches do not work and have high expectations of a pastor to do the work they should be doing. I have friends from college who have been involved with a church for many years that has never had a paid pastor. The church continues to do very well and does a lot of mission work in the U.S. and in other countries. The older train the younger. That occurs in every area of ministry. I find quite a humble attitude there.

    Is your God big enough to provide for you and your entire family? Or is your God so small that He is limited by your finite mind?

    Where does God's providence come into play with what God wants? Why is your God limited to your viewpoint? Is your faith equal with His providence?

    When we left for seminary the place where my wife worked gave us about $1600. That was from non-Christians and in addition the church we attended gave us a bunch of money too. God provided in ways we would have never thought of. We would have never thought that non-Christians would have give us anything. The Sunday School class I taught gave us a lot too. Those people were on social security. Students at the seminary helped us without a word from us. We prayed and God provided everything we needed.

    My gifts are in the areas of preaching, teaching, and administration. So a good education is needed to exercise those gifts well in the church. I was one who uprooted my family and moved to get a seminary education. I was personally helped very much by the discussions I had with quite a number of professors outside of class. My daughter if quite intelligent and I was not sure how to handle her ability to retain information so quickly. So I sought the help of one of the counselors on campus. My wife and I received positive counseling that helped us a lot in doing ministry together and understanding each other better. Her dad viewed pornography when she was younger. I develop many lifetime friends from those days. Those kind of things go way beyond simple classroom studies. One of the professors was a great help to me in helping me to be a better dad because he had children who were already grown at the time. My dad beat on my mom. I met many students from other countries and had theological and practical discussions with them about issues. Often they have a very different point of view than we have. My life was changed in many ways outside of the classroom. I had several discussions in the home of the president of the seminary. I saw how he dealt with issues. I had incredible opportunities.

    Years ago when I started a construction business I started in a time where 75% of the contractors went broke. It was my employer who suggested that I go into business. I was not at all easy about that because I did not feel as though I had the financial resources not the training I would have liked. However my employer answered every question I had an gave me every assurance that he would help me. We prayed and God provided in ways that were beyond the typical wisdom. Business was so plentiful that I was over one year out in a very short amount of time.

    There are typically two philosophies present in institutions. One is to help the student get through. The other is to help the student be well prepared. Whichever one you want will be possible often in the same institution.

    Do not compare yourself to others. Compare yourself to Jesus and what He requires from you. What he requires from everyone is that which lasts for eternity. What kind of a price tag can you place on that? I have never seen anyone do much for God who ever places a price tag on what God wants. Abraham in Gen 12 left his place of wealth to a place that he did not know where he was going. His life was secure and he left for a place not knowing where he was going.

    You may not see the importance of a seminary education because of the way God has gifted you. That is not wrong just different.

    Just be sure to live for Christ and do not limit His use of you by your wallet. He owns the world and surely he will provide for you.

    When I attended seminary a wealthy family gave us four huge bags of clothes for our daughter. They were very nice clothes that we would have never bought. They were better than I would even buy if I had the money. We felt wealthy with a poor bank account.

    Sometime when you get a chance read about John Mott and what he did. Read about George Mueller and how God provided.

    When we begin to think that God has not given us what we think we should have and that He will not, we begin to limit God and mock Him by our ways. We put God in a box as an idol. Why should He do anything the way we want? If He were to do things the ways we see them then how would He be glorified?
     
  14. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    But that does not equate to "those whose I.Q.'s allow them to get a better GPA".

    Not many wise...

    This is a logical fallacy. You are basing this on your opinion that Brick and Mortar schools are in some way superior, or that God wants people attending brick and mortar, rather than Distance ed. seminaries.

    My God is big enough to give me a wonderful and equivalent education through distance education, and thereby be a good steward of His money at the same time.


    One of the smartest, and most well trained Pastors I have ever met, got his M. Div. through Liberty Universities Distance ed. program.

    One of the least competent Pastors I have ever met, had a Doctorate from one of the "Big Six".

    It is all about the effort you put in: not the delivery system.



    Including distance ed.

    Another Logical fallacy. If I can get a Truck for 2,000 dollars, or I can get the exact same truck for 10,000 dollars, I am being a horrible steward to pay more money, for the exact same truck, just because some people think the more expensive truck is better, for no particular reason.


    I think a seminary education is extremely important. I just disagree that distance ed. seminaries are in any way inferior. Just less expensive, and more convenient.


    We are commanded to worship God with "all of our minds". This includes comparing two academically equal degree programs, and using His money wisely.

    If I can learn Greek, for 500 dollars total, or I can learn Greek for 2,000 dollars, plus room and board, plus the expense of moving to another state, etc. etc., I think I have a responsibility as a Christian to consider the options, and not just "hop on the bandwagon".
     
  15. michaelbowe

    michaelbowe Member

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    I never said DE isn't good; I have a DE degree. I said DE, and B&M has limitations.
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I have always said that a truly wise person knows what he does not know. The problem is that you think you know but you do not know what you do not know.
    If I were to judge churches and seminaries across America I would come to the conclusion that they are dead. However not all are dead. In fact some are very much alive. If I believed everything I read I would come to the conclusion that the churches in America are all dead and Christianity is dying a slow death.
    Much of the benefit that comes from a seminary is the many discussions that occur among students and the professor outside of class. Almost none of those things are written in books.

    Many years ago I met a man who had no more than a fourth grade education and he pastored a very large church. Billy Graham wrote that if he had it all to do over again he would have gone to seminary. About 98% of the early Christians could not read or write too. So does that mean we should do the same?
    Ever watch an Olympian learn online? All of them have coaches for a reason.

    Laziness never honors God. I would much rather listen to a man who does not have a high school diploma than a professor who is arrogant and lazy. Arrogance is not limited to just the educated or just the uneducated. It is everywhere in all circles of people. I believe that more education requires more humility too. Too often that does not occur.

    It is much more than just effort. Some can put in a lot of effort and have a great passion for God, but are unable to communicate very well. I could spend many hours running and I will never be a Carl Lewis.

    While you may get a cheap truck and even have one given to you that does not equate to an education. I have taught at three different universities. I can tell you that each one looks the same on paper but I teach much more where I am at now than any of the others. One is because of the environment and the other is because of the students. There is a huge difference in the professors too.
    There are so many things that go on in a classroom setting that do not occur online. In my classes I teach about twice as much as what is found in books. There are many teachers who are very well prepared who do not write books. Your response reminds me of a son who came home to tell his elderly dad how to run his business as though he were shopping for a new car. Two years later the son was broke and failed in business even though his dad helped him get started. The dad took back the land and for several years now the son has worked for the dad. The dad knew the importance of things that were not read in books. I can assure you that what the dad knows is not found in any book. I teach some of those same principles about business but have never found any of them in books.

    What I have noticed is that poor people tend to think much like you but highly successful people think much differently. Poor people tend to look at the cost only and not the benefits. They are short sighted.

    A truck might be an example if all things were equal. The problem is that never are all things equal. A truck is not education and training to the glory of God.

    The school is only as good as its students and professors combined. The combination is what is essential. An education is not only what we learn from a teacher but what we learn from other students too and the interaction they have together. There are many times a student brings up an experience he has had ion class and I did not plan on it but it served as an example for all to learn from. Not only do all learn from the example but they learn leadership from my example of how I treat the student. At that moment I am teaching the subject matter and leadership by example.

    No such thing exists among those who know. It does exist in the eyes of students who do not know but those who are in the professions do know the difference. When I tell my students that they are in one of the best programs in America the response is always the same. They are surprised unless they have worked in the field for awhile. There is not another university who hires faculty with the experience we have. The average of the faculty is about 20 years of experience in the field before we began teaching. Most students do not have a clue about our qualifications. Most of them think we are just like what they have been told by the public about teachers.

    A former roommate of mine from Greece would tell you much different. You cannot place a dollar value on the intangibles. The only way you would know the difference is to be at the top and look back. Why do you think students from other countries come to America to study? They do not come to just learn the English words but the language and the culture which surrounds it. One of the students my daughter brought home on Spring break wants to be a diplomat from the country she is from. She would not learn the language well unless she came to America. Al she would have learned was the words and their translation if she had stayed in her country. She told us of the many things she has learned by coming t America that she did not learn in her country even though her English was quite good for a foreigner.
     
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Right back at you. "Brick and mortar is better because I say so". There is no LOGICAL reason for it: you just feel that way, because you feel that way.

    Perhaps you need to earn a degree through a good distance ed. program, before you talk about things you know nothing about.

    Interesting. In my last DE class (The Doctrine of the Kingdom), I was in a 9 hour straight conversation/debate with, not only people who believe like myself, but people from other seminaries from around the world. We hashed through, I think, nearly every scripture on the subject.

    In a brick and mortar school, I would have been confined to people with the same basic beliefs: people would have not been thinking outside the box. The Bell would have LONG since rang, the class would have been over, and I would NOT have learned a BUNCH that I was able to learn.

    Further, I would not have time for such in depth conversations, because I would be desperately trying to earn enough money to pay for the education, that I could have gotten better and cheaper, from DE.

    Again, you are stating your OPINION that brick and mortar schools are superior. There have been several people, just on this forum, with extensive teaching experience, who have disagreed with you. There is no science to back you up. In fact, the little science their is on the subject, says the opposite of what you are saying: that learning from home is superior.

    You have nothing but your opinion. And considering your ignorance of DE, I would not put much stock in it.

    Actually, I have. Several Olympians have earned degrees through distance education, as a matter of fact. They have a coach because their practice is PHYSICAL, not mental. Mental and spiritual exercise can be done from the comfort of your own home.

    Not sure what this has to do with the topic. The man in question (D. Min. from a "Big six" seminary) was in no way lazy, arrogant, or incapable. IMO he was poorly trained.

    But again, this has nothing to do with information delivery systems, but rather the innate gifts given to the individual by God. Some people are naturally gifted, that's true.

    In fact, every one is different. Some people (like yourself) may be incapable of getting a good quality education from DE. Some people, like myself, learn poorly in a classroom setting, and do much BETTER via distance education.

    Price does NOT equal quality. There are good professors at small seminaries. Personally, I LOVE my professors at SATS!

    Maybe 10 years ago. Not now.
    [/quote]
    In my classes I teach about twice as much as what is found in books. [/quote]
    Tell me, how many times have you pulled 30 or 40 students from other seminaries, with contrary views, into your "brick and mortar" classroom, and force your students to defend their beliefs, on a single topic, for 9 hours straight? You CANNOT get that in a brick and mortar classroom.

    Your response reminds me of my Father, when I used to work with him as a construction supervisor. I told the "powers that be" that I could draw them up some plans for a small clean room, and have it ready for them to look at in three days. My dad told me I was nuts. He said I should have given myself more time, and what I had told them was impossible.

    He came in and looked over my shoulder while I was drawing them out on the computer. "That's amazing! I didn't know you could do that!" Was his response. TWO days later, I handed the drawings over.

    My father was not up on technology. He admitted he was wrong. And so are you.

    What an arrogant statement! Walter Chrysler (Of automotive fame) was hardly a "poor person". Neither was Abraham Lincoln, or Nelson Mandella. All of them did Distance education (Lincoln and Mandella earned their degrees this way).

    You have no science to back up what you say. Others with more experience than you, disagree with you (regarding DE). This is nothing but your opinion.

    Money does not equal quality. The apostles training cost NOTHING.

    Wrong. An education is only as good as the faithfulness and diligence of the student seeking it, and the God He serves.

    What is funny, is that not less than three other experienced professors, on this very board, have disagreed with you. I have only seen ONE person actually agree with you, and I am not aware if he is a teacher or not. Those who are "in the know" seem to vehemently disagree with you.

    Tell that to Cambridge University. BTW, your arrogant attitude against the hard work and effort I have put in is quite offensive.
     
  18. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    First, let me put on my moderator's hat. This is turning into a distance ed vs. resident ed discussion. We go down that road every so often, largely with little profit. So let's be careful.

    Second, let me just point out that academic snobbery exists among the distance ed folks, too, and that's just as bad as academic snobbery alleged on the side of residential ed folks.

    Third, I have done most of my education residential style (RE), but I do have distance ed (DE) experience. I attended a Bible college that was virtually a seminary undergrad experience, attended secular schools RE, and seminary RE. I am doing now an MBA entirely distance and plan on doing a doctorate from a seminary entirely by distance. I clearly would prefer to be doing all my education in a classroom because interaction from profs and fellow students is priceless. But I don't have to fight to find a parking space and spend an hour commuting to campus either.

    I wish providence would have allowed me to do the M.Div and Ph.D at seminary as I planned. Colleagues and friends from college/seminary days could not be matched doing it online. That said, I have benefited and will benefit from work done distance ed. I have had good email interaction with professors and expect the doctorate to have the same.

    And remember, we should be talking more about ministerial preparation, not just education. No question you can get good education DE. Preparation? Yes. But my experience is that my preparation via RE was invaluable along with the practical experience from mentors in the church/association.

    I guess I look at it like this: I have watched literally one half of a Tennessee football/basketball game at the stadium/arena, and the 2nd half at home on a nice TV. I'd take the in-person experience every time, even though being in my living room has its advantages. So, too, it is with education.
     
  19. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Listen, I am not arguing against Brick and mortar schools. Both avenues have their advantages. SOME people learn better in that environment. Some, self motivated types, prefer and learn better via distance education.

    My problem is when people get the attitude of "It's not a real class, unless it's in a real classroom" attitude, and start looking down their noses.

    Frankly, I will put the training I have received, up to this point, against the training of any other seminary in the world (Not that I am so smart, but that the programs are equivalent). I am quite sure my Greek (from comparing it to other seminarians) is equivalent to most second year Greek students, if not a little above average. Just because I was not in a class with a bunch of other knuckleheads like myself, does not mean I do not know the Primary and Secondary Active or Middle/Passive forms just as well as they do. It does not mean my Greek vocabulary is in any way less.

    To say otherwise, is completely counter intuitive: it is lacking of anything resembling common sense and logic. Knowledge is knowledge.
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    That is not saying much considering that so many theological schools are in the business of attracting students and expanding financially. A former professor of mine was regularly criticized by the administration because he expected a lot from his students and not many students took his classes because we had to work so hard. The general discussions were that an C with him was better than an A with anyone else. I had heard from several students that if you wanted to learn Greek to take him. If you wanted to fulfill the requirement than take someone else. A friend of mine was taking Greek at another seminary and at the end of two years I was ahead of what he had in three. When I started my second year of Greek a student who was in the class had come from another well known school and had two years there. He was behind what we had at the end of one year. At the same school I was at there were students who had little more than elementary Greek from other professors at the end of two years.


    Are you saying that information is typical of most second year Greek studies? I learned that same information in the first semester of elementary Greek.

    You are right in one way and wrong in another. Most schools are about average. Looking at the best is something quite different. When I was a university student I thought I was quite good in my field until I went to study under one of the best in the world. When I began studying there, my work was pale by comparison. I quickly realized that in less than six months there the students were way ahead of where I was in four years at a the university I attended. Looking at most around I looked quite good but not until I looked at the best.

    The same exact argument is the same argument heard about 45 years ago regarding TV and satellite education.

    I have no doubt that some classes could be taught very well and maybe better online but others would fail miserably.

    Where I teach we have online introductory classes and regular classes. I teach a series of classes which have prerequisites. Some of my students have previously taken online classes and not one of them know the information as well as the students who sit in my classes. If there was no benefit to in class discussions then sitting in class would be useless. In class I give out information that is not published and is not include in my class notes. It is the same with books. The best books often do not stay in print very long because publishers do not sell very many of those books and they are expensive.

    The aviation industry once thought that most training could be done in a simulator but they have found out that the simulator may help but it does not give a pilot the same experience of a real life emergency situation. When I went for my first check ride and the instructor shut off the fuel and turned off the ignition switch I had a much different reaction than when I was in a simulator.

    There is no question that online education can be great in some ways and fail miserably in others.

    Students today are great on the computer but too many find themselves unable to communicate very well in a face to face situation because so much of their communication has been online.
     
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