Servants of Mary

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Rakka Rage, Jun 3, 2003.

  1. Rakka Rage

    Rakka Rage
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    "Is the Blessed Virgin powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants? Yes. The Blessed Virgin is powerful enough to obtain the salvation of her true servants, that is, those who from the bottom of their hearts without ceasing ask her to help them to rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel, and to die in the love of God."
    - Short Catechism Of Mary, Cardinal Charles Journet, pg 56

    are you a "True Servant of Mary"?
     
  2. Trust in the Lord

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    what does the bible say? Are we to be servants?
    Who are we to be servants to? Where is Jesus in this question? Mary is nothing Jesus is everything
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    Mary is a wonderful example of a woman who was faithful to her husband, Joseph and to her several children coming from him. Jesus was born through the incarnation and Joseph was not His human, father. Mary was a virgin and is an example of what a Christian woman should be like.

    Jesus tell us that only He can be our Advocate and Savior, no one else included. Jesus said in His own words while on earth, 'No person can come unto the Father accept by Me.' [John 14:6e] The same apostle many years later said that our only Defense before God Almighty to plead our cause in making Heaven our home is the same Person, Jesus. [I John 2:1] Notice John did not allow two or more advocates/attorneys to pray for us in the Presence of God.

    While Roman Catholic tradition allows for intercessors like Mary and Padre Pio, God and His Bible, the Word of God, does not give us this impression or liberty.

    Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, the Greek scholar, tells us that this one Advocate is Jesus and the word means 'one called by your side' or 'one who undertakes and champions your cause.'

    While I respect Pope John Paul and like him the best of all the popes that I have seen in my life time, I adhere only to the words of our Lord. Someone must have gotten their instructions crossed up as to how many intercessors there really are for us.

    Without pontifical tradition and their ex cathedras there is no warrant for more than one Savior.
     
  4. CatholicConvert

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    There is only one Savior. What Protestants fail to understand is that everything that the Blessed Virgin does is in the power and authority of Christ Jesus.

    In order to understand this, you must understand the union between the Son of God and the Blessed Virgin.

    When God created mankind, He created a son (Adam) who was to rule over God's creation in His name and in His authority. Adam was to be a part of the physical creation, yet in the image of God, bearing witness to the unseen God before all creation.

    Eve was his co-regent. To show the intimacy of their union, God, who could have brought her forth from dust as He did Adam, instead brought her forth from Adam himself. Thus we see how true it is that they are "one flesh".

    But the meaning of the "one flesh" relationship must go further than just the sharing of fleshly DNA, muscle, and skin. To be truly one, they must also be "one in spirit". This is true communion. God gave to Adam a helpmeet, subserviant to him in authority, for Adam was the covenantal head, yet able to co-rule in Adam's power and authority. All decisions made by her were to reflect his authority and be of one mind with him.

    In the Fall, we see the result of Eve choosing her free will decision over that of Adam. Adam then bent his will to hers, overturning the natural and proper order of authority established in this covenantal relationship.

    In Christ Jesus, God restores Adam to covenantal headship over mankind. Jesus, as perfected humanity, is the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) and the head over humanity. Therefore, since God has restored Adam to humanity, in order to complete the redemption of the fallen couple in Eden, He must provide an Eve for mankind. He provides us with the Blessed Virgin.

    Adam and Eve are our mother and father in the flesh. Christ and the Blessed Virgin take their place. Mother and father are positions of covenantal headship over the family. Father is the head of the family. Mother is the helpmeet. Their union brings forth life, which is the children of their covenantal relationship.

    In the same way, the spiritual union of the salvific wills of Christ and the Blessed Virgin brings forth believers -- children to the family of God. They are the fulfilled spiritual antetype to the original type. They are, in fact, what Adam and Eve could have been if the Fall had not taken place.

    Therefore, when we adore the Blessed Virgin, we adore the one who has been set in a place of authority and power in Christ. We adore the one who is our Mother, indeed, the mother of all who are truly living in Christ, just as Eve was the mother of all living on earth (Gen. 3: 20).

    When we speak of salvation coming through the Blessed Virgin, it in no way means that she is the Savior. It rather has to do with her being "one" with Christ, in perfect union with His will, and carrying out His divine will as His helpmeet. Only if you see the restoring of Adam and Eve will you be able to understand this.

    Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


    Brother Ed
     
  5. Singer

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    Even the brain strain involved in trying to understand the Catholic
    approach is enough to set my constitution on edge. I grew up in a
    sect (2x2) that required this same "understanding" with the emphasis on
    their "Way" as exclusive.

    Whatever it is that is revolting to a person's spirit was evident in what
    I grew up in and is now evident in what I hear of Catholicism.

    What should be understood is what the non-exclusive members and
    ex-members of these sects say as they reveal the wrong in the systems
    far better than those still on the inside. I am a fugitive from the 2x2
    system and I very well "understand" what is wrong with it.

    Sometimes the understanding that needs to be done is to understanding
    that we are subject to wrong teaching as we have here.

    I've been there before.

    Singer
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I guess the answer to that question would be a huge "no". And then something about God the Son being the "ONE Mediator between God and man".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Carson Weber

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    Cardinal Charles Journet

    What an excellent author! I have thoroughly enjoyed Journet's theology in my graduate studies.

    I highly suggest his The Meaning of Grace. It may be instructive for quite a few on this board. [​IMG]

    I guess the answer to that question would be a huge "no". And then something about God the Son being the "ONE Mediator between God and man".

    When Paul wrote this to Timothy, he used the Greek heis, not monos.

    heis means one as in "sole and primary, allowing subordinate participation"

    monos means one as in "solely and only, mutually excluding any participation"

    And, we see Paul asking that Christians serve as mediators in this same passage, sharing in the one (heis) mediatorship of Jesus Christ:

    "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Tim 2:1).
     
  8. BobRyan

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    "The One Mediator between God and Man" is not a claim to be "The ONLY one who PRAYS for others".

    So when we read that among the living - prayers are to be made for others - this is never taken to mean "MEDIATING BETWEEN God and man".

    The role of Christ in presenting His OWN blood in our behalf - is true "mediation". He alone is our priest after the oder of Mechizedek - our mediator - "Without beginning of days or end of years" but is God - eternal. No other being can claim that place - and so - no other mediator but Christ "the One Mediator" between God and man.

    Notice that the NT text is never quoted as saying "Mary is mediating between God and man" nor is it ever quoted saying "the apostles" are doing that NOR is it ever quoted as saying that the "Dead in Christ" are "Mediating between God and man along WITH Christ".

    To get those "additional mediators" we simply have to "make it up".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    As non-Catholic Christians we know that the bottom line is that we develop our theology and doctrines from the Bible, the Word of God, while Roman Catholics build their faith on the Bible plus the traditions of the church.

    If truth is eternal why were not doctrines like: the assumption of Mary into Heaven, the immaculate conception, the co-redemptrix of Mary, the rosary, praying to saints, and other ideas produced by the popes, presented to us, at the onset, through the Apostolate's epistles? Why were they not delineated for all Christians in the Bible?

    We as well as Roman Catholics become confused because in one decade eating meat on Friday was a sin, and in the more recent decades it is legitimate.

    We do not think it is wrong for any denomination to have a head bishop, but we do table many questions about a human being taking authority in the development of 'add-on' theology.

    In reality Roman Catholic theology is top-heavy on tradition to the point that it overtakes and compromises the words of Jesus Himself. Example: In John 14:6 we read the words of our Lord Who in fact is the way, the truth and the life, and Divinely requires that all sinners must come only through His Mediatorial ministry. 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.' If we were to believe in the co-redemptrix of Mary, we would be contradicting our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ.

    One of the apostles, it may have been Peter, just completed a miracle when that person bowed down in adoration because of his accomplished miracle. The agent of the miracle refused to take any credit or glory for this supernatural miracle and said in effect, "Don't worship me." To our thinking the adulation received by the pontiffs seems well beyond the pale of human affection and respect toward one who guides the church.

    The idea of Adam and Eve and Jesus and Mary is a clever spin-off but hardly the work of hermaneutical laws or Biblical exposition of the holy Scripture.
     
  10. GraceSaves

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    Yes, because, as the quote says, through her intercession, she brings us to "rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel [the death and resurrection of her Son, Jesus Christ, who has taken away the sins of the world], and to die in the love of God."

    The above quote, which you insinuate puts Mary above or equal to God, clearly shows her subordinance, because her power, as the quote states, is to bring us to the Gospel and God.

    And its no wonder some of you can't comprehend this, when even after months and months of explaining things like this to you, some of you still call devotions like the Rosary, a "doctrine." That doesn't make any sense, and is simply false. When you perpetuate something that is so obviously false, it is not hard for me to see why you don't grasp other concepts of the Catholic faith.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  11. Yelsew

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    just goes to show that Journet was wrong!
     
  12. Singer

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    (Grant) Yes, because, as the quote says, through her intercession, she brings
    us to "rise from sin, to live in the light of the Gospel [the death and resurrection
    of her Son, Jesus Christ, who has taken away the sins of the world], and to
    die in the love of God."


    You just quoted that Jesus "has taken away the sins of the world". He didn't
    need Mary's help to do that then and He doesn't need it today. You might be
    praying to the wrong person, Grant :confused:

    Our friend who can help in time of need is who ?
    1. Jesus
    2. Mary

    *One has the power to help / one doesnt.!!
     
  13. Briguy

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    Hi Grant, when I read that quote I saw the "gospel" right away and knew what the quote meant. Read carefully the writer does put the gospel above Mary. It seems the way the Catholic writers, from long ago to those on BB use language about Mary, that on first glance seems very wrong. You, Bob, Ron, and Carson have said many times that you do not worship Mary or believe she can "save" souls on her own. Unfortunetly the words you and others use make it look like worship to those of us who do not fellowship in a Catholic church. When I see the "Co" that is associated with Mary I cringe because I see it like if you and I co-wrote a book we would both be responsible for everything to do with the book. Mary is not the Co-author of our salvation, though I do respect her very much and look forward to meeting her in Heaven someday, though in all honesty, not as my queen but as my "sister".

    Hope you are well, Grant Are your studies done until fall now?

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  14. CatholicConvert

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    Brother Ray --

    I find myself surprised to hear you say this. Surely you understand the hermeneutic laws of type/antetype, do you not? What do you find that violates this?

    Since Jesus, the man Who is perfected humanity, is called "The Last Adam" (1 Corin. 15:45), then if we apply the type/antetype fulfillments to Him, then in keeping with the laws of fulfillment, He simply must have an Eve, right?

    Why would God call Jesus "The Last Adam" in Scripture if there was not a correlation between Him and Adam, our father in the flesh? Just using nice sounding words, maybe? Or is there a deeper and more important meaning which has to do with the covenant of God and the restoration of that broken covenantal relationship which the Fall severed?

    Incidentally, I am in quite good company. The writings of the Early Fathers of the Church refer to the Blessed Virgin as the New Eve, and this is long before the so called "corruption of the Church by the Roman government and Emperor Constantine".

    Your problem is that you are most likely a dispensationalist and neither know of nor have been taught in covenantal theology and its implications for mankind. This is a shame, since the word "covenant" is mentioned well over 280 times in Scripture and is an important principle of God's dealings with us.

    I would recommend to you Ray Sutton's book on the covenant called THAT YOU MAY PROSPER -- Dominion by Covenant. After you finish that, you should read Scott Hahn's book THE COVENANTAL KINGDOM. Sutton pours the foundation and Hahn puts up the edifice. You will learn a lot!!

    Cordially in Christ,


    Brother Ed
     
  15. CatholicConvert

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    Brian --

    Of course she is. She had to say yes to God in order to bring the Messiah in to the world. What she did not do was to die upon the Cross, shed holy and precious Blood for the redemption of mankind, and rise from the dead. But she did indeed have a hand in the salvation of the world by her "yes" to God.

    The Early Fathers said this: "The knot of sin by which the disobedience of Eve bound the world, has been loosened by the obedience of the New Eve, the Blessed Virgin"

    Did Eve have a hand in the Fall? You better say yes!! ;)

    Well, in the same way, the Blessed Virgin had a hand in the redemption by her obedience to God's plan.

    And do you yourself have a hand in the salvation of others? I think so, for Scripture indicates that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. It also says that those who win others to righteousness shall shine as the stars in the heavens. Don't you think that is having a part in the salvation of others? It is being, without dying, a co redemptor with Christ.

    It is just of a lesser degree, and orthodox Catholics understand that perfectly.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed

    PS I have been thinking about you lately. I listened to a tape series by Scott Hahn regarding justification and when he came to the necessity of baptism, you popped into my mind. I really wish you would see that you are making up your own salvation plan. I must remember to pray for you.
     
  16. thessalonian

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    I'm feeling mighty powerful today. Can I move a mountain. Am I omnipotent? Not really. The Bible says it is possible with faith.

    Matthew 17:20
    And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.


    My power to do such a thing would only be through my prayers accessing God's power. His omnipotence through prayer. Catholics recognize the power of prayer, i.e. Mary's prayers as the mother of God. She held the incarnate word in her womb. She loved him with the deepest love of a mother for a son that the world has ever known. I know of my love for my children. But I did not bear them in my womb or nurse them at my breasts. Further I am not in heaven before his thrown in constant worship of him this very minute, seeing him in all his glory and splendor. I see no reason why one who is absent from the body can no longer pray or care for their loved ones on earth and I see no reason why Mary, the mother of the God/man who died for us all, would not care for all of her son's friends as my wife shows care and concern for all of my children's friends who stop over for koolaid on a hot saturday afternoon.

    James 5:16
    "The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

    There are none more righteous than those in heavnen and there intercession for us, helping to move the hearts of men toward her son, are very powerful. They are the only power that she has. That is Catholic teaching but you distort it as something more. Do you deny the power of prayer?
     
  17. Briguy

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    Hi Ed, Thanks for praying for me. I am always searching God's word and trying to understand better. I pray about Baptism myself and have prayed about justification as well. I will never stop growing in knowledge. Those not open to growth maybe were never born in the first place. :D You are one of the genuine people on this board. You never try to be someone your not and I like and respect that.

    About Mary saying "yes". It is true she said yes, I do not dispute that. The problem is that others have said "yes" that also directly affected our salvation, just as much as Mary. Abraham is the obvious example. He said "yes" to God and "knew" his wife, though it is possible they were finished with such things at their age. Abraham said "yes" and raised Issac and even was prepared to sacrifice him by God's command. Abraham siad "yes" and gave birth to the line that would lead to Jesus, without which Jesus could not have been born to Mary. The problem is that Abraham is not the "king of Heaven", in the Catholic Church, even though he said "yes" to God. I ahve also never heard anyone say a "hail Abraham". Hopefully I made that point without sounding demeaning to Mary. I can't say enough how glad i am god chose her and she said "yes". I will thank her in heaven someday, along with Abraham, Issac, David, Moses and others who played huge roles in God's plan.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    CatholicConvert,

    We both agree that Christ is the 'second Adam.' What Adam destroyed in the Garden Jesus wants to recover [I Tim. 1:4 & 6] by a covenant relationship with human sinners. [II Cor. 5:18] Adam brought condemntion; [Romans 5:16] Jesus brings reconciliation [vs. 16]. I do see a type and a prototype between Adam and Christ.

    My brother, I do not see any reference in II Corinthians 5:14-21 as noted above, to Mary being a co-redemptrix nor even an hint in that direction.

    I am not Pentecostal but visited Calvary Temple in Allentown where they offered a live story of Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection. The drama showed Jesus being taken down from the Cross with Mary holding His dead physical body across her lap. I am not easily brought to tears but I cried, in fact sobbed uncontrollably, as I saw before my eyes what she experienced and how she felt. The actress for Mary sang a song as to how He only came to love and experienced hatred.

    Some Protestants in defending Christ's exclusive Mediatorship,[Matt. 16:18; John 3:16; John 14:6; I Cor. 3:11; II Cor. 5:19; go too far, by believing that she had and has no effect on our Christian faith. We must forgive them for that. I wonder how Jesus feels about so harsh statements about His dearly beloved mother? Just the fact that she was a virgin is an example of how Christian women should behave before marriage. She was a faithful wife in marriage and a nurturer of her children which is also a guide as to how the Christian family should operate. I preached a sermon on Mary on Mother's Day one year and it was received well by my congregation.
     
  19. Carson Weber

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    Hi Ray,

    If truth is eternal why were not doctrines like: the assumption of Mary into Heaven, the immaculate conception, the co-redemptrix of Mary, the rosary, praying to saints, and other ideas produced by the popes, presented to us, at the onset, through the Apostolate's epistles? Why were they not ?

    Because the Bible isn't a Catechism. It is a channel of divine revelation, which doesn't come to us in such the tidy neat little package that you're expecting.

    Consequently, I could ask you: "If truth is eternal, why is a doctrine like the Blessed Trinity not delineated for all Christians in the Bible? Where does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit is consubstantial with the Father and the Son: equal in majesty and personhood?

    The present doctrine of the Blessed Trinity was formulated from the Sacred Scriptures by the Catholic Church. Yes, the Church.

    We as well as Roman Catholics become confused because in one decade eating meat on Friday was a sin, and in the more recent decades it is legitimate.

    Why would this confuse me? If I have the simple discretion to learn - you know, educate myself - this no longer remains an eternal enigma.

    The Church practices acts of communal penance, and as a son in the family, I am bound to the house discipline, which is liable to change.

    a human being taking authority in the development of 'add-on' theology.

    That would be to fundamentally misunderstand and reject a priori the development of doctrine, which you yourself accept implicity (e.g. the Trinity, Christology, and the canon of Sacred Scripture).

    In reality Roman Catholic theology is top-heavy on tradition to the point that it overtakes and compromises the words of Jesus Himself.

    Actually, in my graduate studies, I have come to the opposite opinion. I have found the Catholic Church to be the most faithful to the words of Jesus Himself in her doctrine, and I have found her to be top-heavy with regard to Scripture.

    Figure A: Us --&gt; Jesus --&gt; Father

    Figure B: Us --&gt; Mary --&gt; Jesus --&gt; Father

    How does Figure B (what we as Catholics believe and teach) violate John 14:6?

    Essentially, you're advocating that the Church teaches Figure C.

    Figure C: Us --&gt; Mary --&gt; Father

    If I ask you to pray for me, then Figure D is set into operation.

    Figure D: Me --&gt; Ray --&gt; Jesus --&gt; Father

    Ray! You've just usurped the divine prerogatives of John 14:6! Or have you?

    You haven't any more than Figure B does, unless of course, I were to mistake Figure D for Figure E.

    Figure E: Me --&gt; Ray --&gt; Father

    ***

    Ray, if you would, could you please answer a couple of questions for me?

    1. Regarding Co-redemptrix, what does the Church teach with regard to this doctrine? In other words, what does it mean?

    2. What are the Scriptural foundations for the doctrine of Co-redemptrix? I don't want your opinion; I want what Catholic theologians say. How is this doctrine based in Scripture, according to Catholic teaching?

    [ June 04, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  20. Rakka Rage

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    1Ti 2:5
    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    so you must believe there are more then one god too... because thats what Paul said.
     

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