Seven Points of Pelagianism

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Frogman, Mar 28, 2004.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    The Seven Points of Pelagianism


    1. Adam was created mortal, so that he would have died even if he had not sinned.

    2. Adam's sin injured, not the human race, but only himself.

    3. Newborn infants are in the same condition as Adam before the fall.

    4. The whole human race neither dies on account of Adam's sin, nor rises on account of Christ's resurrection.

    5. Infants, even though not baptized, attain eternal life.

    6. The law is as good a means of salvation as the gospel.

    7. Even before Christ, some men lived who did not commit sin. (These men were Abel, Enoch, Joseph, Job, and among the heathen, Socrates, Aristides and Numa.)

    ~ Copied


    For your consideration.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  2. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    Thank you for exhonorating me from the "label" of Pelagian!
     
  3. Frogman

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    Which of these do you specifically disagree with?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    2, 4, 6, and 7

    I agree with 1, 3, and 5
     
  5. Eric B

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    Most Arminians agree with only #5 (especially given the lack of baptism being what presumedly would keep one from eternal life if they were not an infant).
    So here too, thanks for further exhoneratng us. Makes it even more ridiculous how some Calvinists make Arminianism synonymous with the Gospel.
     
  6. Yelsew2

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    Eric B, Assuming you are speaking of water baptism, Baptism has nothing to do with salvation! Salvation is a free gift from God to those who have faith, not those who have clean skin! Perhaps that was your point.

    As for #1, There is no reason to believe that Adam was ever intended to be an Eternal being! Scriptures never clearly state that! Also, Who put the serpent in the Garden? Who allowed the serpent to work on Eve? Obviously, the serpent is not greater than God!

    #5 Obviously, God favors infants because what faith they may have is pure, they don't have sin to taint their "faith". Propensity to sin Yes, but no sin! Faith in their mother to care for them, is the kind of faith that God wants us all to have except that He is the caregiver.
     
  7. Frogman

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    Eric B,
    Could you provide, for my personal understanding what 'most arminians' believe.

    Also check your statement above:

    Makes it even more ridiculous how some Calvinists make Arminianism synonymous with the Gospel.

    It may just be me, but I am misunderstanding your statement.

    yelsew2,

    Would choosing to eat of the tree of life rather than the tree of knowledge of good and evil have given to Adam the quality of being an eternal being (noting that the spirit of man is eternal and so on).

    Because even dying without faith does not 'destroy' the human spirit. Right?

    You can also contribute to EricB's list, or contribute your own list of beliefs if you wish, I know you probably will be offended for my asking for a listing of your beliefs, but I would like to discuss them in accordance to their scriptural foundation, if you so desire.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    We'll never know now will we?

    However just because the possibility exists, proves #1 to be true!

    When we die from the flesh our spirit continues to live. Those spirits that have faith, pass from that first death into life eternal. Those who die lacking faith are judged, and the judgment is being cast into the lake of fire, the second death! Being cast into the lake of fire is a terminal condition. Whether or not you want to believe that the spirit cast there in ceases to exist or whether you accept the premise of eternal torment is of little consequence because either way it is terminal.

    I believe the Buick automobile is one of the best on the highway.
    I believe the price of beef is outrageously high.
    I believe in Home schooling.
    I believe the democrat party is wrong for this country in this time.
    I believe it is going to be a hot summer in the West.
    I believe...

    Could you be more specific about which category of belief you would like me to list?
     
  9. Frogman

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I agree with you about the democrat party [​IMG]

    And also buicks, but don't you think the price of gas is outrageous, or is that a 'fluctuating belief' since after all gas prices are always up and down ;)

    God Bless you Yelsew2, I can say that even if we do disagree most of the time.

    Why don't you want to present your beliefs, just wondering, not to be 'contentious' with you.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Yelsew2

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    Gasoline here in the Southwest, is currently $2.27 per gallon for the 87 octane grade up to $2.59 a gallon for the 91 octane grade. So, yes the price of Gasoline is outrageous! I remember paying $.19 per gallon for regular! I could fill my big '56 Mercury Montclair with the Police interceptor motor, for $5.00. My last fill-up cost me $33.00, and I got 4 less Gallons of Gas. So, Yes the price of Gas is outrageous, and it is forcing the price of Groceries, clothing, Utilities, and the general cost of living to rise exponentially. Keep in mind that there are more automobiles in Los Angeles and Orange Counties of Southern California that in ANY other state and more than all of New England combined! There are eight Major Oil refineries in a 20 mile radius of the Los Angeles Harbor, and we in the southwest are paying the transportation costs to haul Gasoline to the rest of the West where the prices of Gasoline are up to $.50 per gallon less than where it is made!

    The Unloading fee for an oil tanker in the Los Angeles Area is the HIGHEST in the world! Granted this is a local goverment problem, but it is basically insurance for catestrophic failures. The Cost of Real Estate is with the exception of down-town San Francisco, New York City, Chicago, Boston, and San Diego, the Highest in the land, with the median price of 3 bedroom, well used, 20-50 year old, homes in the greater metropolitan area is $325,000.00. Most of these homes, when built, were between 17 and 30 thousand dollars. Salaries have not kept up with inflation!

    Even so, Gasoline is still cheaper than Bottled water...believe it or not!
     
  11. Frogman

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    I can remember when gas was 90 cents per gallon for regular :D And water hadn't been bottled yet, at least not in Ky.

    Now, back to Pelagianism, before we get off topic :eek:

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. Frogman

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    Ok, I understand #1; although I disagree with you, the wages of sin is death, prior to 'sin' entering into the nature of man, there would have been no death, no decay of the body in old age, this will bring us to #3 which I also disagree, I believe this is evidenced that infants do share the sin nature at birth, or else why do they too suffer death?

    #5 I also agree with this one; I am hard pressed to show by scripture why, but I believe the episode with the child of David and Bathsheba's child is a certain indicator; however, I believe that even infants must be quickened by the Holy Spirit, that they are not just simply 'covered' by the shed blood of Christ.

    Brother Dallas
     
  13. Eric B

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    Oh, I was rushing off to bed for an early job this morning, and just off of a rather intense debate elsewhere. [​IMG] It was supposed to be "synonymous with Pelagianism".

    I know most Arminians, at least of the cvonservative evangelical or fundamental stripe, do not believe in #3 (or at least they don't speak like they do when they cite "born in sin, shapen in iniquity", etc). #1, I don't thonk so either. Most teachers say death began with the Fall, and they even extend this as an argument against old earth thepries, assuming that the death of animals and plants is included in what began with the Fall. So I've never heard anyone say that Adam was mortal.
    So I was saying that Arminianism, as I am familiar with, would only agree with #5, and of course, the rest of their points are the ones opposite the 5 points of Calvinism (except for perseverance among those who accept OSAS).
     
  14. Frogman

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    Thanks EricB, I thought that was perhaps what you meant, but I wanted to make sure. Didn't want to be accused of putting words in an Arminian brother's mouth :D

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. BBNewton

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    I think a fundamental difference between Arminianism and Pelagianism is the effects of the Fall. Arminians will argue that the Fall plunged mankind into a state that is very close to Total Depravity. Pelagians say that the Fall more or less just set a bad example and that men sin because of the bad influence (children are without sin).

    Another difference rests with imputation. Some Arminians will argue for the imputation of Adam's sin and the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Pelagians think such things are hogwash.

    I'm sorry for labeling you as a Pelagian, Yelsew, I guess you are semi-Pelagian with a liberal view of the Scriptures. I keep you in my prayers.
     

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