Featured Seventh Day Adventance

The "punishment of eternal fire" according to Jude 7 is what Sodom and Gomorrah experienced.

Luke 12:45-47
41 Peter said, “Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Christ Divides Men

49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!


that is the way the eternal fire - punishment of hell is described by Christ.

We cannot avoid the Gospel teaching of Christ.

Indeed the teaching of Christ was that his followers would suffer torment in the county jail if they chose faithfulness to Christ and obedience to the Word of God.

That is not the payment of hell that is being referenced in Luke 12 and Matt 18 -- the "forgiveness of sins" as seen in the Lord's prayer in Matt 6 - etc.

Which is obviously why OSAS does not survive the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Is that all you can do when defeated in a debate?
Go to another parable which illustrates a completely different truth?
Sad Bob! Very sad indeed!

 

again, he is just parroting the flse theology of his false prophetess, exact same way Mormons recite Joseph smith, and JW pastor Russell!

 

hint - this is not "just another place to ignore the teaching of Christ in the Gospels" as some seem to imagine - simply because Christ contradicts some favored man-made-tradition.

(and in this case you yourself admit that there are degrees of punishment in hell - so no need to war against this text the way you oppose Romans 11 and Matt 18)

 

Have you received the Gift of Eternal Life?

Romans 11:29 - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

1John5:11 - "And the testimony is this, that God has given (Past Tense) us eternal life, and this life is in His Son".

John4:10 - "Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”


John5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (Present Tense) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".

Eph2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved (Past Tense) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

Romans 11:29 - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


Let the reader of this debate understand clearly from the Scriptures that there is no such thing as "Forgiveness revoked". "Forgiveness Revoked" is but an attack upon God's promise to keep those whom He has given Eternal Life. It is the abuse of a Parable in a desperate attempt to war against the teaching that a Child of God is kept by the power of God (1Pt1:5).

 

Romans 9 says that the promises of God to the Jewish nation do not fail even in light of the failure of the Jews to accept Christ - because it is those that obey God by faith - that are true Jews, True Israel.

Yet - another problem for OSAS I suppose.

So I am glad that Steaver chooses to remind us of Romans 11.

Certain details in Romans 11 - must be "carefully skimmed over and ignored" to get OSAS to survive the text of Romans 11.

=====================================

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

Paul declares himself to be in that "remnant" of saved jews that remains today - even amid the nation in rebellion.
[FONT=&quot]"God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant[/FONT]


More Bible "details" in Romans 11 that the OSAS POV "needs to ignore" to survive this Bible detail - in post after post.



Saved "holy branches" remain from among both Jews and Gentiles "fellow partakers" in the olive tree.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

Some Gentiles are saved and SOME Jews are saved according to Romans 11.

[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

"Save some of them" is an obvious reference not to "some Jewish nations" but to "some Jews in the Jewish nation". Once again individual salvation is said to be the priority in Romans 11 in vs 14 just as in vs 1-4.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]SOME Jews were broken off for "unbelief" those who believe are called "the remnant" in Romans 11:1-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
================================================== ====

And as shown in my three previous posts - Paul freely admits that he is a jew -- one of the remnant that 'remains at the PRESENT Time" when writing Romans 11.

The faithful Christian Jews joined by the believing gentiles as "fellow partakers in the rich root" from which all derive life.[/FONT]

 

1 John 5 is key in telling us just who it is that has eternal life - those who Love God and Love the children of God.

1 John 5
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

 

The details which continue to get you into trouble with this passage (Romans chapters 9-11), is the context--the fact that Paul is writing about God's dealing with the nation of Israel. It is no problem for you to take a verse here and a verse there out of that context and make it say whatever you want it to say regardless of the fact that Paul is speaking of God's dealings with the nation of Israel.
May I remind you that that methodology is used by almost every cult.
You simply prove a point concerning yourself and your theology to the rest of us.

 

Are you quoting from the New World Translation--the J.W. translation? I can't tell.
It is a bad translation; obviously.
"Whatever" (vs.4) refers to things, not people. People are not things, so what is the author of the translation referring to? Animals? Plants? Minerals? Just what is the "whatever" referring to? A whatever is usually referred to as an "it." "Whatever" "it" may be I don't want it.

However, Whosoever is born again overcomes the world.
Those that are born again don't lose their salvation. They are overcomers. They have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit by saying that he fails; he doesn't. The believer always overcomes. He IS an overcomer. If one is not an overcomer it is obvious that he is not saved. Perhaps, (according to your theology and translation, the "he" is an "it.") :laugh:

 

Amen! And as I noted the "bible detail" you would like to go away is that Ro11:29 declares God's gifts are irrevocable! Thus, anywhere you find a "gift" given declared in the Scripture, the gift is irrevocable. A "bible detail" which must be ignored for your doctrine of losing Eternal Life to survive.

Have you received the Gift of Eternal Life?

Romans 11:29 - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

 

Amen! I am glad to see that you are willing to accept at least some "bible details". Those who do not keep His commandments do not know God, they have never been born-again!

For those who have received the gift of Eternal Life we have this promise from God....

Romans 11:29 - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

 

I am happy to see that you want to discuss Romans 11 some more - here is what we find there.

Romans 9 says that the promises of God to the Jewish nation do not fail even in light of the failure of the Jews to accept Christ - because it is those that obey God by faith - that are true Jews, True Israel.

Yet - another problem for OSAS I suppose.

So I am glad that Steaver chooses to remind us of Romans 11.

Certain details in Romans 11 - must be "carefully skimmed over and ignored" to get OSAS to survive the text of Romans 11.

=====================================

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

Paul declares himself to be in that "remnant" of saved jews that remains today - even amid the nation in rebellion.
[FONT=&quot]"God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant[/FONT]


More Bible "details" in Romans 11 that the OSAS POV "needs to ignore" to survive this Bible detail - in post after post.



Saved "holy branches" remain from among both Jews and Gentiles "fellow partakers" in the olive tree.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

Some Gentiles are saved and SOME Jews are saved according to Romans 11.

[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

"Save some of them" is an obvious reference not to "some Jewish nations" but to "some Jews in the Jewish nation". Once again individual salvation is said to be the priority in Romans 11 in vs 14 just as in vs 1-4.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]SOME Jews were broken off for "unbelief" those who believe are called "the remnant" in Romans 11:1-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
================================================== ====

And as shown in my three previous posts - Paul freely admits that he is a jew -- one of the remnant that 'remains at the PRESENT Time" when writing Romans 11.

The faithful Christian Jews joined by the believing gentiles as "fellow partakers in the rich root" from which all derive life.[/FONT]

 

No need to go any further than this. It is a good example how you pervert the Scripture, distort it for your own means.

1. Paul does not speak of individual salvation at all.
2. When Paul speaks of a remnant he is still speaking of the entire nation of Israel. "The remnant" will be a "smaller Israel," that part of Israel which will be left after having gone through tribulation and trials. But that "remnant" or smaller Israel, will grow into a mighty nation both numerically and fruitfully.
3. Paul does not include himself in that number, that remnant. He declares that remnant to be future. Paul himself does not identify himself as a part of the nation of Israel. You deliberately misinterpret him. He is a Christian not a follower of the Jewish faith. If you don't know the difference between the two by now you need to start all over again with the ABC's of Christianity. There is a big difference between Judaism and Christianity. Paul is not a follower of the religion of Judaism. He was simply identifying with them in his heritage, not in his faith. Get your facts straight. He was saved, born again, a disciple of Christ--not a follower of Judaism as you say! He had forever left that nation which severely persecuted those who claimed the name of Christ, as Saul had formerly done.

 

That much of what you said is actually correct though the rest of your post is in doubt.

Your glaring contradiction to Romans 11 is beyond explanation.

As we can all see INVIDIDUAL salvation is the context from the very start.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

1. "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.[/FONT]" == INDIVIDUAL Paul not NATION of Paul. Obviously.

No wonder you do not quote this in your direct contradiction of the text.

2. Elijah pleads "against the NATION" but GOD - points to 7000 individuals. "[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” [/FONT]-- not 7000 nations. Obviously.

No wonder you do not quote this in your direct contradiction of the text.

3. The 7000 faithful to God in vs 4 is given as an example of the current (individuals) faithful to God that Like Paul - are Israelites that accept the Gospel. Not a "remnant nation within the fallen nation" of Israel - Obviously.

Totally false.


Paul starts out with the statement that HE is a faithful Israelite just as are the remnant that "at the current time" as of the writing of Romans are faithful to God - just as the 7000 were in Elijah's day.

Obviously.

Totally false.

[FONT=&quot]5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]


You cannot bend "at the present time" into your much bent and much-wrenched "future only" idea.

Obviously.

No wonder you do not refer to the details in vs 5 in your effort to distort the clear teaching of the text.

Totally false.

[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.[/FONT]" == INDIVIDUAL Paul not NATION of Paul. Obviously.

No wonder you do not quote this in your direct contradiction of the text.


"You deliberately misinterpret him."

(The rest of your post is mere shallow rant no need to quote it)

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here is your logic.
I will say: "I too am a Canadian."
Thus you jump to the conclusion that all Canadians are saved because I am a Canadian.
Paul was stating his heritage, his identity with a people, not that they were all believers, and not that they all believed. He was not siding with their belief system. He was a follower of Christ first and foremost, an Israelite by heritage second. That had nothing to do with his beliefs.

You are the one distorting the text.

An OT example does not to justice to the NT. Paul was a NT believer, not an OT saint.

He is giving his testimony. He is stating facts. Many facts are presented in the present tense.
1. There is a Millennial Kingdom (but it is future).
2. There is a rapture (it also is future).
3. I am a Canadian (I have been for a long time; I don't have to state it in past tense and neither did Paul--he was referring to his heritage).
4. There is a remnant. That doesn't mean it was in existence during Paul's day. It is still future. Both the rapture, the appearance of the antichrist, and the beginning of the Great Tribulation have to take place first.

 

Obviously. And that is the part where we both agree.

Where we differ is the fact that Paul does identify himself as a Jew who accepts the Jewish Messiah being Jesus the Christ.

Paul argues that a remnant of individuals in literal Israel do that same thing.

Individual salvation in the face of national apostasy is what Elijah faced - is what Paul faced.

in Christ,

Bob

That is nonsense. Paul states in Romans 11 that at that time THERE IS a remnant in the same way that one existed in the days of Elijah.

Everybody can see this.

[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

you have bent-wrenched "[FONT=&quot] In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time[/FONT]" into "[FONT=&quot] In the same way then, there will SOME DAY be at a some FUTURE time a remnant" -- your not-so-subtle eisegesis is hard to miss[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Jews persecuted Christians, as Paul once did. Paul is no longer one of these Jews; no longer believes in Judaism. He identifies himself with Christianity. See Romans 1:1.
He is an Israelite only in heritage.

Romans 9-11 is a passage that deals with the nation of Israel.
The sooner you see that the better off you will be.

Again, that is not true. Israel had rejected God both times.
"He came to his own; his own received him not."

A remnant of collective believers (a nation), as there will be in the future--a remnant of collective believers or those that will believe in Christ. See Romans 11:26. All Israel shall be saved.

The entire passage is eschatological in nature.
[/FONT]
Now, what is more important for you is not to continue to derail this thread. Go back to the OP, you know the part that continues to embarrass you. Read the first page again, the one that begins with this post:

 

Not all of them.

Not Timothy.

Not Timothy's parents.

Paul's argument in Romans 11 remains - he considers himself a JEW that has accepted the Jewish Messiah.

Paul says "At the PRESENT TIME" there is a remnant just when you imagined a bend-and-wrench of scripture munging the text into "at some future time there WILL be a remnant".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Timothy was not circumcised because of his Greek father. He did not get the proper education that he should have gotten. He was "home-schooled" because he was not allowed in the Temple. Not being circumcised, he missed out on some of God's greatest blessing. He suffered persecution at the hands of his father. That is without a doubt.

Both Lois and Eunice came to know Christ as Savior. Your point therefore makes no sense.

He was a Jew in heritage only; a Christian in faith.
My ethnicity has nothing to do with my faith; neither does Paul's. You are being ridiculous.

You are eschatologically challenged. And no wonder!! Who wouldn't be following a false prophetess!
Jesus IS coming, and HE IS coming soon. Paul taught that, and that truth remains true today. It is called belief in the immanent return of Christ, and is always stated in the present tense.
Having said that, "There is a remnant." There is a remnant because Jesus is coming for that remnant, and then that remnant will be saved. Note that I only used the future in the last part of the sentence. There is a remnant. Yes. Paul believed that there would be a remnant then and now, or whenever Jesus would come again. It is a belief in the imminent return of Christ. Christ is coming for his bride, and Paul is part of that bride. So am I.
You may not understand this. But those truths that Paul expressed then, are as true today as they were back in his day.