Seventh-Day Adventism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ray Berrian, Dec 21, 2005.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    While going to seminary for my B.D. degree our professor used, "Four Major Cults" Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing Company, copyrighted in 1963 which included Jehovah Witnesses, Mormonism, Christian Science and yes, Adventism.

    I will give you a couple of serious error that they hold to that classifies them outside of the Christian church.

    Walter R. Martin, in his "Answer Questions On Doctrine" declares that Christians at death do not go immediately into Heaven but rather lie in the grave in a 'soul-sleep mode' until the judgment.

    Secondly, they believe in the annihilation of the wicked. In other words, sinners will not be put in the Lake of Fire forever as Revelation 20:14-15 indicates. At the end of time they will be merely blown, if you will, into a non-existent--never existent state. They will evaporate as though they never lived a wicked life.

    Thirdly, their eschatology is upside down.

    Of the three cults I think there are some Adventist who are really saved but like some of the Apostle Paul's communicants have fallen into a lot of theological error [I Timothy 1:19-20; II Timothy 2:17-20.

    They do not believe that Christians die and go immediately into Heaven. But what does God through the Apostle Paul say in II Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23?

    There are other errors like their view on "Investigative Judgment" but this might give us some things to evaluate.

    While pastor in Doylestown, Ohio I became friends with an old Adventist and I believe he was saved because of his apparent love for the Lord. But especially in 'end times events' the whole system was upside down and wrong.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  2. DeadMan

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    I have a few friends who are SDA and what you have just stated is exactly what they have told me they believe. Of course the real "hum-dinger" is that Sunday worship will become the mark of the beast and if we don't conform to sabbath-keeping, we are not saved. When they decide to try to convert me (about once or twice a year), my first and last question for them is, "Was Jesus' death on the cross payment for our sins or not?" They can never get around that one, as much as they try.

    There are many other errors in their doctrines but I can't remember them right now. I remember once, while attending church with them one Saturday, hearing some of the congregation discuss different bible versions and, specifically, which ones 'don't stand up under their doctrines'. Instead of examining their beliefs using the bible as the ultimate source of truth, they were using the doctrines to determine which versions of the bible were acceptible! My buddy saw me listening in and instictively knew what I was thinking and quickly got us moving in another direction. I sincerely pray for my SDA friends every day.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    War Eagle,

    Yes, they think the Roman Catholic Church caused all of us Protestants and non-Catholic people to go astray by accepting the Lord's Day over the O.T. sabbath. The Apostle Paul said that we should not make a fuss about which day of the week we worship. Everyday we should be worshipping Him in our hearts.

    Ray
     
  4. DeadMan

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    Ray,

    I agree. I believe Paul's directives on days of the week can be found in Romans 14.

    Lots of interesting stuff at SDA Beliefs
     
  5. DeadMan

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    How do they get around Hebrews 4:8-11? Jesus is our Sabbath rest!
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Dead Man,

    Yes, you are right about Romans 14:5-6; God does not require Christians to worship on any particular day. We worship on Sunday because Jesus arose from the dead on the first day of the week. We do this to honor Him and Sunday is the day when most employers give their employees off for rest and gathering strength for the new week.

    Hebrews 4:8-11 probably has a lot of truth in it. I see God speaking through Paul's writings saying, that salvation is our rest in God. 4:10 indicates that our hope of Heaven does not come by our 'good works' but rather our faith [Romans 5:1] and devotion to Jesus insures our hope of never ending life.

    In vs. 11 God wants us to make sure we are in His rest lest we fail to really believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in the salvific sense of the word.

    When we are saved God gives the new Christian everlasting life and not an intermittent spiritual life. [John 3:16; John 10:28; I John 5:11 & 13]. Many people think that everlasting life is their reward for being good while on earth.

    When we truly trust in Jesus as our only hope of Heaven, He gives to sinners eternal life, a life that will never end even though we pass through physical death. Death is the gateway into His Presence [II Cor. 5:8].

    War eagle--what do you understand about the Hebrew passage of Scripture with reference to Adventists?
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Walter Martin in his book "Kingdom of the Cults" pointed out that the Adventist church is in fact Christian. He pointed out doctrinal differences that he had with Adventists - and overall he did a pretty good job of defining Adventist teaching as it is actually taught by Adventists.

    While I certainly do not agree with his various points of rejecting Adventist doctrines - I think he did do a good job of stating why it is that they are Christians EVEN given the differences of opinion that he had with them.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    There is no quote from Heb (the entire book much less chapter 4) that says "Jesus IS our Sabbath".

    What it says is "THERE REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the People of God". It points to the "Same condition" that was addressed in Psalms by David and says that this condition "remains" to this day.

    But there is "no quote" in Heb 4 that says "Jesus IS our Sabbath".

    RC Sproul makes an interesting point here - he says that any law of God in the OT that is tied to Creation itself (the creative act of God and commands dealing with that) REMAINS for the people of God today. In this case he was speaking of the command given to Noah that those who murder must themselves be killed. Sproul argues rather abstractly that Noah is like another Adam as the race starts over and God is again giving the commands related to that "Creation" to mankind.

    Even more so in Gen 2:3 where we see that God rests on the Sabbath and in Exodus 20:8-11 God declares that the "Gen 2:3" fact alone makes it binding upon mankind.

    In Isaiah 66 God says that in the new heavens and new earth "ALL mankind" comes before God "To Worship from Sabbath to Sabbath".

    It is hard to imagine ANY command that was given more "Start to finish" review that Christ the Creator's own Creation Memorial of HIS OWN work in Creation!

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ December 22, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  9. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Hebrews 4-8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    Another day does not mean sunday, just in case some are thinking that.

    God ceased from his works and rested on the Sabbath. (Sat)

    lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief

    The example of unbelief is worshipping on Sunday. I do not however believe that is the mark of the beast.

    This is not unbelief in Jesus, it is just accepting mans word instead of the word of God.

    And before you tell me, save your typing, I know that some believe God was only talking to the Jews when He said"remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy".

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Romans 14 does not mention the Creator's Sabbath at all.

    In that chapter we have the case of abstaining from meat (not commanded in the OT) and the issue of either honoring ALL of the Lev 23 holy days or selecting "one ABOVE ANOTHER" and honoring it.

    The issue for no-meat comes from 1Cor 8 where Paul addresses the same issue. IT has to do with meat offerred to idols (also mentioned in Acts 15 for those who care).

    In NO case do you have a quote from Romans 14 that say "He who honors NO day is blessed".

    We might "wish" it had said that - but it does not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    It follows the "same sequence" as is presented in Matt 24 (in fact in all the Gospel accounts) AND it follows the same sequence as is seen in Rev 19-21 -- and it follows the same sequence as would be required if you accept the statement in Rev 20 that the resurrection "at the coming of the Lord" is the "first resurrection'.

    That means that 1Thess 4 is the first resurrection and it means that all the events it describes about the "coming of the Lord" are also applicable to the "coming of the Lord" that we see in 2Thess 2.

    In that case the SDA end-of-time doctrine is the only one that works.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Not exactly.

    SDAs do say the wicked go into the lake of fire of Rev 20 AND they also admit to the Rev 14:10 fact that ALL the torment of the wicked takes place "IN the very PRESENCE of the LAMB AND of His Holy Ones"!.

    No leaving the sight of your/our friends or loved ones writhing in torment to "have a party" some place else while they suffer.

    Granted the SDA teaching does not say that this torment lasts for agonizing day upon year upon decade for our precious loved ones - but "many days" would be a torment for us as well as them - just the same.

    The complaint that "that is not long enough" does not grasp the magnitude of the horror you will be eye witness to.

    God says he "reduces them to dust" even satan himself.

    God says that JUST as the body is "destroyed" today in this life - so God "Destroys BOTH body and soul in hell fire" Matt 10.

    No eternal sinning, cursing, rebellion and no eternal writhing in agony of our precious childeren that did not make it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Phil 1 says that from the standpoint of the one dying - at the moment of death we are with the Lord. Adventists also teach this - because they accept the words of Christ in John 11 and Paul in 1Thess 4 (and 1Cor 15) that the saints are "asleep" in death and as scripture says "in that very day their thoughts perish". So at the resurrection the current of thought picks up exactly where it left off - no time is perceived to have elapsed."

    This is why BOTH Paul (1Thess 4) and John (John 14:1-3) say that it is the 2nd coming that is the point we are to look to as our time of being "With the Lord".

    This is why Peter says to "Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of our Lord and Savior".

    In 1Thess 4 instead of saying "Do not worry about your loved ones that have died for they ARE WITH the Lord" Paul points them FORWARD to the resurrection saying that THEN after that "THUS shall WE ever be WITH the Lord" therfore "comfort one another with these words".

    Christ said "I WILL come again and RECEIVE you (up - rapture to heaven) myself that WHERE I am there you may be ALSO". Johh 14.

    In 2Cor 5 we see there are only TWO bodies -- and they are sequential. In vs 1 There is THIS earthly tent and then there is the heavenly immortal body also promised in 1Cor 15 AT the resurrection. There are not three bodies.

    No body sharing.

    No termination of the "eternal body" spoken of in 2Cor 5.

    No "being with Christ" apart from the promise that Christ gives in John 14 and that Paul points to in 1Thess 4.

    No "resurrection" before the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20:4-5.

    No standing there for eternity in Rev 14 watching your loved ones writhing in agony - and NO leaving them in their torment while you go party. They burn but not without end.

    By keeping to the boundaries set by scripture - the picture works perfectly.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Bob,

    I do agree with you about Isaiah 66 and also in Ezekiel that in the future Millennial Kingdom Jesus will return worship to the Sabbath Day.

    As to Dr. R.C. Sproul he is a 5 pt. Calvinist and is writing error nearly everytime his pen touched paper. His books are not worth the value of their wholesale price value.

    I agree with you also that the Word is not saying that Jesus is our Sabbath, but rather we can rest in Jesus for salvation just as the Jews rested and did not work on their holy day called, the Sabbath.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Bob,

    .

    You said, 'Phil 1 says that from the standpoint of the one dying - at the moment of death we are with the Lord. Adventists also teach this - because they accept the words of Christ in John 11 and Paul in 1Thess 4 (and 1Cor 15) that the saints are "asleep" in death and as scripture says "in that very day their thoughts perish". So at the resurrection the current of thought picks up exactly where it left off - no time is perceived to have elapsed."

    .
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Bob,

    With your view everlasting life is only given at the resurrection from the dead, if you know Christ.

    Ephesians 2 tell us that His grace is given as a gift to sinners now; everlasting life is neverending life received when we get saved. [John 3:16]. No lapse of time factored in here.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    In 1Cor 15 the statement is made "THIS mortal must put on immortality" showing that we are mortal not immortal.

    In 2Cor 5 the statement is made that in this life we live an earthly tent that is being torn down. Only in the next life do we see 2Cor 5 showing us to be either "eternal" or "immortal" --We are not described as immortal in this life - but rather decaying.

    We are promised eternal life "in the age to come" -

    The same point is made in Luke 18:30.

    In Eph 2 we are said to already be in heaven with Christ seated with HIM on His throne

    But in 2Cor 5 we discover that in fact we are still here - on earth, "We walk by faith not by sight" and in a decaying tent.

    In Phil 1 we find that it is in the next life that we are "with Christ" not this one.

    Eph 2 is a future view - a promise claimed by faith.

    In Rev 20:4 we see that promise fulfilled and the saints seated with Christ at the "First Resurrection".

    In 1Cor 15 Paul makes the point that if the reward is "in this life" then we are of all mankind "most miserable" most to be pitied for in this life we do "not receive" what was promised by way of that "eternal life" which is in Christ and causes us to get the "eternal body" made in heaven --

    Even 2Cor 5 makes it clear that while we are in this body we are "absent from the Lord"

     
  18. BobRyan

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    When we are converted, justified, forgiven, born again we receive the promise of eternal life by faith. But "in that state" we are still "Children of the promise" for we have not yet received that promise but anticipate it.

    Paul says of the full reception of that Gospel promise "Not that I have already received it".

    Paul points out that eternal life - release from the curse of death - comes when the last enemy "death" is finally conquered.

    For the saints - death is not conquered until the resurrection from the dead. No claim to immortality is shown apart from that release from "real" death.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ December 22, 2005, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  19. BobRyan

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    If John 3 was meant to show that in death - the saints are alive and worshipping Christ -- then Christ's own argument in Matt 21 would never have worked. Both Christ and the NT authors place their focus on the John 14:1-4 coming of Christ and the resurrection of the saints that happens then, when it comes to fellowship with Christ for the saints.

    This focus on the resurrection as our only hope for fellowship with God that Christ in making the point FOR the resurrection says the only way God can CLAIM to be the God of Abraham after Abraham's death is to raise him from the dead!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Bob Ryan,

    Do not make this theology some difficult to understand.

    If you are saved you have the Holy Spirit within this mortal body and in your spirit and soul. [I John 3:9] The Holy Spirit is eternal and maintains your everlasting life until your transition into Heaven. Our life there is also eternal.

    I Peter 1:23 tells us that the Holy Spirit in us in incorruptible; nothing or no one including the Devil can disolve that eternal Being and within us.

    Soul-sleep is a a doctrine coming from a man, not the Lord. Again, with your view Heaven is like a disserted island with no one there; but maybe you will allow angels to be there.
     

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