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Seventh-Day Adventists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Bible Answer Kid, Dec 8, 2006.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This gets back to the "good bible" vs "Bad bible" idea. It is as if "all agree that Leviticus is part of the Bad bible" and the argument is of the form -- "So if we don't agree to junk the Old Testament then we might have to obey a part of the bad bible -- how else would we get out of it?""

    But a Bible "believing" Christians needs a much better solution than that for turning a blind eye to certain parts of scripture.

    That is why I point out on the first page the SDAs must accept and ENTIRE Bible - not just popular snippets of it.

    And that puts them in some unpopular doctrinal positions. We must ACCEPT and HONOR God's Word in all cases - so when He tells us in Heb 10 that Christ put a STOP to all sacrifices and offering through his own sacrifice we can believe it. Then when we SEE in Lev 23 that the sacrificial system and the annual holy days are based on each other - we see that with the stop of the sacrifices - ends those holy days.

    It is easy once you take the path of ACCEPTING all the Bible - but if you solution is "junk the parts you don't like" then I agree - you have to toss out the ten commandments to avoid all those other things that are not popular
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith??? God Forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

    Is it your claim that IF we KNEW what day Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we KNEW what day was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath to study the bible -- if you KNEW what day God referenced in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow IS the Sabbath" ... if you KNEW what day Christ the Creator blessed "and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would actually keep it??

    Somebody here would actually say that??!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    the "half-truth" mixed with "total disinformation" approach that you are taking here is not helping to establish credibility for you failed claims.

    1 - SDA have written NO BIBLE TRANSLATION. There are paraphrase versions around that -- Like the living Bible - are one man's paraphrase of scripture BUT NOT an actual Bible translation.

    To claim that you do not know the difference between an actual translation and a paraphrase is to say more about you than those you seek to accuse.

    2. When SDAs want to quote what was said FORTY YEARS AFTER Sinai - they reference the text of Deut 4 and 5. When they want to quote what GOD SAID AT Sinai they quote Ex 20.

    The reason for that is - exegesis - paying attention to what the text says IT IS DOING!

    This may be a new idea for you given the way you have been constructing your points so far - but I highly recommend it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    However we do believe in the sinful nature of man and that all mankind is born - lost and in need of salvation.

    we do not believe that man can of his own self do right due to the Romans 3 depravity attributed to the sinful nature.

    It is only the fact that "God Draws all mankind unto him" John 12;32 that mankind is enabled to choose to OPEN the door as Christ stands knocking.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good to me!
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Since the Ten Commandments tend to come under fire when we mention Christ the Creator's Sabbath Commandment - what if we take your example above and apply it to another commandment.


    Try the one about images - for example. The RCC chooses to exercise the freedom they have in Christ to ignore that one - and use images in worship. Does that mean it is still wrong - or does it become right in that case?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    i vote for Sunday night. Is God open for a vote on this?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    the story of the fall of Adam in Gen 3 is literally true and shows how mankind fell - literally true.

    But when we talk about original sin we mean that God does not charge all mankind with the sin of Adam - but yet all mankind is born SINFUL with a sinFUL nature and in need of Salvation. Infants need a Savior and they HAVE one - so no limbo threat, no purgatory for unbaptized infants for example.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The fact is Bob, that neither you nor any other SDA has ever been able to show me any command for a NT Christain or a Gentile Christian to keep the Sabbath before the return of Christ. You can't do it.
    We are not speaking of the law or pre-law dispensations. We are speaking of the here and now--after the cross and before the Second Coming. Where is the command to keep the Sabbath? Where is your evidence?
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    BobRyan:
    "Is it your claim that IF we KNEW what day Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we KNEW what day was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath to study the bible -- if you KNEW what day God referenced in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow IS the Sabbath" ... if you KNEW what day Christ the Creator blessed "and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would actually keep it??
    Somebody here would actually say that??!!"

    GE:
    Bob, have you, written this? I cannot believe! What about you saying, applying it ALL, to 'Christ the SAVIOUR'? Is it your claim that if we knew WHAT DAY Christ the Creator Kept as the Sabbath in the Gospels, if we knew WHAT DAY was the Sabbath of Acts 13 in the NT where the saints came to Sabbath after Sabbath study the bible -- if you knew WHAT DAY God referred to in Ex 16 when He said "tomorrow is the SABBATH" ... if you knew WHAT DAY Christ the SAVIOUR, "blessed and made holy" in Gen 2 -- that you would REFUSE keeping it in remembrance of the "exercis(ing) of the exceeding greatness of his power when He raised Christ from the dead"?
    Somebody here would actually say that and not reach THIS ultimate conclusion??!!
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Coined by Bound: "canned apologetics"! Fantastic, hey I enjoy it! Yea, take five, man!
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Cloned:

    "Originally Posted by xdisciplex
    If keeping the Sabbath is so important then what about all the other rules in the bible? What about the levitical law? Do 7th day adventists also keep all these hundreds of rules from the OT? :confused:



    This gets back to the "good bible" vs "Bad bible" idea. It is as if "all agree that Leviticus is part of the Bad bible" and the argument is of the form -- "So if we don't agree to junk the Old Testament then we might have to obey a part of the bad bible -- how else would we get out of it?""

    But a Bible "believing" Christians needs a much better solution than that for turning a blind eye to certain parts of scripture.

    That is why I point out on the first page the SDAs must accept and ENTIRE Bible - not just popular snippets of it. ..."

    GE:

    Bob, this here last sentence of yours is your best answer to Xdisciplex. Every party in debate should "accept and ENTIRE Bible - not just popular snippets of it. ..." whichever may be popular to whomever.

    You have your own as do your opponents. Nothing wrong with that (we all have our favourites). But the danger is we with time get to only see what we like to see in these our very favourites!

    And allow me to play critic of both sides here, and say that both have Christ-blurring glasses on. The 'ENTIRE BIBLE' speaks of Jesus Christ, including Gn2-3 - to use one of your favourites as an example. And Xdisciplex should keep that in mind as much as you, then you won't be at loggerheads, but in total agreement the Sabbath spans all dispensations and reaches uttermost ends in Christianity.
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    BR:
    "Try the one about images - for example. The RCC chooses to exercise the freedom they have in Christ to ignore that one - and use images in worship. Does that mean it is still wrong - or does it become right in that case?"

    GE:
    Since this thread is about Seventh Day Adventists, what of the many images of 'Jesus' in your books and pictures on your walls?
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Just because Love is the SUMMARY of the Law doesnt mean you would get rid of the Sabbath or change it anymore than you would the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. What are you going to do, change it to "Thou shalt not kill except on Sundays"? That makes no sense.

    I'll come back and say something about your "personal liberty" thing later unless I go through Bob Ryan's comments and see that he already said something about it..


    And sorry about some "canned responses". I have carpal tunnel syndrome, from being a web designer and at times its just easier to copy and paste something... if it gets the same point across. I just figure a Bible verse is a Bible verse...


    Claudia
     
  15. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    well obviously we dont pray to them and worship them
     
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Just commanding you to keep the 10 commandments (the law of God) ought to be enough for you. Since the 7th day Sabbath does happen to be one of the 10. (the 4th)



    1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


    Claudia
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ said that the Sabbath was "MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27.

    So know that at it's origin the making of the Sabbath and the making of mankind are both referenced and the Sabbath applies to all mankind at least at that point.

    Isaiah 66 states that in the New Heavens and New Earth "ALL mankind will come before Me to worship FROM SABBATH TO SABBATH" -

    so we see that BOTH at the origin AND into ALL eternity the Sabbath applies to "ALL mankind".

    Your argument seems to be that "recently" God abolished what He GAVE TO Mankind "made FOR mankind" and will one day in the future GIVE IT BACK to mankind.

    Your position is impossible to prove from scripture.

    But for my posiition we have the texts listed here on this thread regarding the "Commandments of God" and the Saints -- prior to the 2nd coming and AFTER the Gospel events of Christ on earth - as I have already shown.

    in Heb 4 we have "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" instead of "there is ABOLISHED therefore the Sabbath rest for the people of God".


    the texts I gave regarding "the Commandments of God" on this thread ARE spoken by Christ AND by the NT authors BEFORE the 2nd comding. (supposing here that you opt to ignore the "bad bible" sections that might have been written prior to the resurrection)

    What more do you seek? A text that says "I really really really mean it"???

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    GE - this is really much simpler than you make it out to be. Give me your honest answer for a second. WITHOUT your gimmick of trying to INSERT the fall mankind into day 6 of creation week (and then having God call THAT "good") - WHERE would your argument be??

    Once we toss out that artifact from your string of arguments all of your complaints appear to fall apart.

    What am I missing?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Point of order -- SDAs are not the only ones upholding Christ the Creator's Sabbath memorial of HIS OWN creative acts in creation week -- the Seventh-day Baptists also uphold it. So this is not in fact a "distinction" between all baptist groups and SDAs.

    Your argument above that "no SDA can show me that..." is equally true in your view with "no Baptist that keeps Christ's Sabbath - like the Seventh-day Baptists - can show me...". Basically this particular doctrinal point is not a distinctive difference between all Baptists and SDAs.

    It is a doctrinal difference that is also fully INSIDE the Baptist groups even if there were NO SDAs.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    having a "picture depicting Jesus" is not a distinction of the SDA church vs Baptist nor even of Baptist vs Catholics.

    My point is that REALLY using IMAGES in worship is as blatantly "in your face" against the 2nd commandment as one might wish for. Just like telling people NOT to honor Christ's Sabbath because to do so would be gospel-denying-legalism is as blatantly OPPOSED to the 4th commandment as one might ever hope to construct in argument against it.

    Therefore I can use the Image worship idea to explore the SAME argument about "freedom in Christ to ignore it" as was being applied to the 4th commandment.

    Bottom line -- my analogy works - your rabbit trail not withstanding sir.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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