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Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins - it shall die".

Matt 10:28 "fear him who is able to destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell".

Matt 22 "God is not the God of the Dead but the God of the living"

1 Thess 4 "the DEAD in Christ will rise first" stated in regard to "those who have fallen ASLEEP in Jesus"

in Christ,

Bob

 

I understand you are spiritually incapable of receiving the truth. I was responding to your heresies for the sake of readers, not for your sake.

 

Thank you for sharing those very helpful texts.

Acts 2 is interesting because it shows that David is still there -even after the resurrection of Christ. Christ is not in the same state - David is left in the same state as he was at death. "dead and buried"

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’


At no point does Peter say "David went to heaven when he died" or "David went to heaven after Christ was raised from the dead".

Genesis 2 vs Genesis 3 is interesting because it contrasts the word of God - with the word of satan.

Gen 2 - God said
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Eve in Gen 3 referred back to the Word of God in Gen 2 -
Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Eve added the extension "nor shall you touch it" -- a mistake on her part.

And what was the Devil's counter doctrine?

Gen 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."


[FONT=&quot]Ps 146:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 do not trust in princes, in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]mortal man[/FONT][FONT=&quot], in whom there is no salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 his spirit departs, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he returns to the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in that very day his thoughts perish. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing[/FONT][FONT=&quot],
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And they have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]no more reward[/FONT][FONT=&quot],
For the memory of them is forgotten.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Also their [/FONT][FONT=&quot]love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished[/FONT][FONT=&quot];
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 “it is the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]living who give thanks[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to you, as I do today;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No memory of God [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that “God is not the God of the dead” To prove the doctrine of the resurrection.[/FONT]

I am not talking about soul annihilation at the first death - that happens at the second death Ezek 18:4 'the soul that sins it shall die"

 

Greetings again The Biblicist and BobRyan,

I was a bit abrupt at responding to your Post and accept in part your rebuke. I think this subject of immortal souls has been discussed at length over many years, and there should be sufficient material for each of us to decide which side of the fence we want to find ourselves. Bob has taken up the baton and he most probably will be able to respond better on this subject. This is also more acceptable as he is a SDA, and is therefore defending the SDA position as per the title of this thread.

This subject has been thrashed out over the years and possibly my fellowship and the SDAs have had a common heritage on this subject going back even to the 1830s and 1840s when these things were discussed amongst the Millerites and others. I have records of some of these discussions.

I am not sure if this is the standard SDA position, but I attended a SDA Church on one occasion and the speaker suggested that the physical body of Jesus did not actually rise from the dead. He suggested instead that in effect his body vaporised through his clothes or wrappings to become a Spirit Being. My belief is that the actual body rose from the dead, and most probably the Angels unwrapped him, similar to Lazarus being unwrapped. My assessment of the JW position, is that they do not believe in the physical resurrection of the body of Jesus, but believe it was preserved (like Lenin in a Mausoleum?). They also believe that Jesus was raised as a Sprit Being, and consider this to be immaterial.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

He is speaking of his grave and what is in the grave. He is not referring to what happens to the soul of David. David himself tells you what he expected at physical death in regard to his soul:

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


In context, David has been jealous of the PRESENT STATE of the wicked, but is then led into the house of God and sees their latter end. Now he turns to his own hope both present and future.

1. I am CONTINUALLY WITH THEE is the declaration

2. Proof that God is NOW with him upon earth follows "hast" and "shalt" here on earth

3. "AFTERWARDS" - refers to God AFTER the continual presence on earth that has been defined by the previous verbs ("hast" and "shalt").

4. "AFTERWARDS" brings him "INTO GLORY" or where God's special presence exists "IN HEAVEN" which again is contrast to "upon earth"

You quote Christ's response to the resurrection , "I am not the God of the dead" but you ignore the positive statement "but of the living" and then "I AM THE GOD of Abraham....." demonstrating they were "living" still in spite of their bodies being in graves. Likewise, David.

Because he is speaking of David's body not his soul which was the subject before him of the resurrection of Christ's body which David's body had not yet been raised but will be raised in the future.

You are assuming too much! Satan also said they would be Like God which God confirmed was true. They did not PHYSICALLY DIE as Adam lived to a ripe old age of 930 years. So again Satan was correct in regard to ultimate death. However, they did SPIRITUALLY DIE just as the Ephesians were born into this world SPIRITUALLY DEAD while physicallly alive. Here is a thorn in your side as it proves that one may be BIOLOGICALLY alive while SPIRITUALLY dead.

This verse clearly makes a distinction between the body and the spirit of man and expressly says that at physcial death the spirit "departs" while it is the body that returns to the earth, as the spirit of man never originated from the earth but directly from the Being of God.

The body is the vehicle of expression for the soul and so when the body dies ALL SOUL EXPRESSION ceases through the body "under the sun."

Again, a most abused text as Solomon all the way through is telling you explicitly he is referring to what is manifest "UNDER THE SUN". The human body is the VEHICLE OF EXPRESSION for the soul. When the body is placed UNDER THE SOD all soul expression through this vehicle UNDER THE SUN ceases to exist. Just that simple. He is not speaking from God's perspective at all but form HUMAN OBSERVATION.

When these simple truths are applied to all your so-called proof texts, your arguments simply vanish into thin air because you are simply jerking texts out of context.

Again, context is abused. Hezekiah is referring to the residue of his life on earth that could be used to praise God in his body in contrast to the soul expressing ceasing through the vehicle of the body on earth and ceasing in the grave as the body is lifeless:

I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years.

Sheol is the STATE OF THE DEAD. It is described as containing a MOUTH and LOWEST sheol. The MOUTH is associated with the dead body or its remains. The lowest sheol is for the DEAD SOULS or lost persons. The only aspect of the saint that goes to sheol is their DEAD BODY and the dead body CEASES to be a vehicle for soul expression in sheol. Thus all SOUL EXPRESSIONS cease in connection with what goes down into Sheol concerning the saint. However, that is not true concerning the Lost as it is a place of anguish of soul for the lost.

You have destroyed all your arguments above by this admission. Of course you must admit this because Jesus plainly states that Biological death of the body does not kill the soul and God does not even destroy the soul at physical death of the body - Thus the soul continues to exist SEPARATE from the body. However, the body ceases to be the vehicle of expression of the soul at physical death and therefore ALL SOUL EXPRESSION ceases "under the Sun" when the body is killed or placed under the Sod in upper sheol "the grave" (1 Cor. 15:58).

 

No, my response was not merely in regard to your present post but it is my assessment of dealing with you for over a long period of time. No matter how much evidence, no matter how clear and convincing the evidence that is placed before you, you simply ignore it when you can't answer it. The Bible has a specific term to describe such a person.

 

I have no idea where that came from Trevor. We have no such belief in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs - and it never has been a belief of the SDA church in all of the history that I am aware of going back to the formation of the SDA church in the 1860's. May 21, 1863.

We have always believed in the real physical bodily resurrection of Christ. And that the saints will also be physically, bodily resurrected at the 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Regarding Acts 2 and Christ -

31he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

Regardless of the inference you add to what David "expected" Peter reports on .. what actually happened with regard to the person - David.

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.



David does not say -- "this is what I will do when I die" - and he speaks of "afterwards" but does not say when - you simply infer that it is imediately at death - when even "the thoughts perish" according to Psalms.

Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

You are using inference alone - and Peter states observed fact.

Your entire argument is lost in Matt 22 - because in Matt 22 Christ states that he is "proving the resurrection" you seek to bend the text as if he is "proving the living dead theory" -- and you seek a solution to the puzzle he gives to the Sadducees that would not need the resurrection at all to solve it. Christ states that the ONLY way that God could claim to be the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" while speaking to Moses at the burning bush - is if they are going to be resurrected in the future since God cannot be their God while they are dead.

You argue "oh yes God is their God while they are deceased" in effect - as if destroying Christ's entire proof of the future resurrection is the "only reading" -- here alone your entire argument is lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Gen 3: 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."

Taking up Satan's side of the debate does not help your case.

Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins it SHALL die"
Mat 10:23 "fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell"
Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is DEATH"

Satan's ultimate "you shall not surely die" is reflected in his doctrine that even in what the Bible calls the "second death" the wicked do not die.


in Christ,

Bob

 

Your arguments are flawed because you are not only failing to observe the immediate contexts but being unreasonable in your responses.

In Acts 2 Peter is establishing the fact that Christ's BODY was not left in the tomb as was David's. He is not attempting to prove that the soul of David was in the tomb and even you admit by your interpretation of Matthew 10:28 that the soul continues a separate existence from the body when it is killed. So your argument about Peter's words is rebuffed by your own admission of Matthew 10:28.

Second, you completely ignore the word "CONTINUALLY" in Psalm 73 that introduces these verses. Instead you are the one who is drawing invalid inferrences that GAPS occur when David says "CONTINUALLY". Bob, did David lie? Or is God "CONTINUALLY WITH" him? He immediately mentions only TWO alternative places (upon earth and in heaven) in regard to this assertion. You infer there are gaps between earth and heaven when God is not "continually" with him. You INFER that between earth and heaven David is in some other place but immediately speaking of God's continuing presence with him on earth he says "AFTERWARDS" God will receive him INTO GLORY and then defines that as "in heaven." I am sticking to what the text says and the words being used. On the other hand you are INFERRING something the text says NOTHING about but if you are faithful to the words CONTINUALLY and AFTERWARDS used in the text your inferences are repudiated.

 

I have dealt with Trevor for a long long time. When he is trapped in a corner with no way out, and he has been put in that corner many times, he simply hardens his heart and comes out asserting his position instead of dealing with the evidence before him. The Bible has a term to describe that kind of person. I just called a spade a spade.

In addition, Trevor does not even worship or recognize the same God of the Bible we do. He is an anti-Trinitarian.

 

[FONT=&quot]Ps 146:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 do not trust in princes, in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]mortal man[/FONT][FONT=&quot], in whom there is no salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 his spirit departs, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he returns to the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in that very day his thoughts perish. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing[/FONT][FONT=&quot],
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And they have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]no more reward[/FONT][FONT=&quot],
For the memory of them is forgotten.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Also their [/FONT][FONT=&quot]love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished[/FONT][FONT=&quot];
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 “it is the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]living who give thanks[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to you, as I do today;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No memory of God [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks? [/FONT]

God the Holy Spirit describes the functions that cease at death - you claim all of these continue only in a more exaulted state in heaven --- at death.

The contrast could not be more clear. God has stated it - has told us what activity ceases - your argument is in effect that "it ceases for the physical body but for the PERSON all of that continues uninterrupted and even more intense in heaven".

You frame your case as a direct contradiction to the texts being discussed as if that helps your POV. I find our logic "illusive" when you choose that option.

Notice that the FULL context of BOTH body AND spirit is in scope of the statement regarding what "ceases".

No "it's thoughts perish" but "HIS thoughts perish" the PERSON.

[FONT=&quot]Ps 146:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 do not trust in princes, in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]mortal man[/FONT][FONT=&quot], in whom there is no salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 his spirit departs, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he returns to the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in that very day his thoughts perish. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

[FONT=&quot]And in the next cas[FONT=&quot]e not merely "dead bo[FONT=&quot]dies do not praise [FONT=&quot]Thee" But rather "WE" and [FONT=&quot]"[FONT=&quot]TH[FONT=&quot]O[FONT=&quot]SE WHO" -- it is the PERSON that is being referenced - the whole person.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord! [/FONT]

 

As usual with you and Trevor there is no common sense or reasonability. You simply ignore the problems placed before you and use the old cultic response by PITTING scripture against scripture instead of calmly and rationally facing the explanations given that HARMONIZE these scriptures. You quote my explanation but then ignore what I said and proceed to pit text against texts as your response.

For example the text you use to pit against what I said plainly says "there is no salvation" for the type of person David is speaking about, but yet you attempt to use it to prove that this describes David's future state!!!!! Where are any grounds of reasonability or rationality in this discussion with you????

 

Your logic is once again flawed.

"Soul sleep" is not about there being "no soul available to sleep" which is the somewhat nonsensical space you have imagined for that POV.

It is about the soul continuing in a dormant state as the spirit that goes back to God who gave it. Thus it is "those who ARE ASLEEP" that are brought back with Christ.

"those WHO have fallen asleep" and those WHO have a body that is sleeping. In fact the body does NOT sleep in death - it is rather annihilated to dust.

1Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Your entire argument against the PERSON being that which sleeps - is defeated in 1Thess 4 -- alone.

we could add - John 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Your inference vs mine?? That is your entire argument? fine.

So then take the "easy" and "simple" example in my response that you are so carefully avoiding.

I notice you were careful not to rescue your argument from your response to the case in Matt 22. This is a "debate" that Christ had on the "state of the dead" on the "question of mortal vs immortal and the question of future resurrection" - his PROOf requires the mortal option to get to a force conclusion in favor of future resurrection.

How do you escape what even the Sadducees could not escape?? And in the Matt 22 text the Pharisees who DID accept the future resurrection freely admit that Christs "proof" shut down the Sadducees - they had no place to go but to admit to the future resurrection.

Your entire argument dies in Christ's debate point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The text you use describes this state of sleep as being "in the dust" or in the graves whereas Jesus BRINGS WITH HIM from heaven those that sleep in Jesus. So the body is described as RESTING in the grave or inactivity because it does return to dust and it is laid in the ground in a position of REST or sleep.

However, the souls of the saved are WITH JESUS in heaven or else he could not bring them WITH HIM FROM HEAVEN. Finally, when sleep is used of the souls it merely means they are RESTING from their works done on earth, not that they are in a comma or without consciousness as the mind is most active in the time of sleep.

So again, your arguments do no match the scriptures you are trying to use, or abuse.

 

You frame your case as a direct contradiction to the texts being discussed as if that helps your POV. I find our logic "illusive" when you choose that option.

Notice that the FULL context of BOTH body AND spirit is in scope of the statement regarding what "ceases".

No "it's thoughts perish" but "HIS thoughts perish" the PERSON.

[FONT=&quot]Ps 146:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 do not trust in princes, in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]mortal man[/FONT][FONT=&quot], in whom there is no salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 his spirit departs, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he returns to the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in that very day his thoughts perish. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

[FONT=&quot]And in the next cas[FONT=&quot]e not merely "dead bo[FONT=&quot]dies do not praise [FONT=&quot]Thee" But rather "WE" and [FONT=&quot]"[FONT=&quot]TH[FONT=&quot]O[FONT=&quot]SE WHO" -- it is the PERSON that is being referenced - the whole person.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hence: Praise to God - ceases at death [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord! [/FONT]

Here again your defense is "transparently flawed" the text does not say "No salvation FOR this sort of man" as you wildly speculate.

Rather "no salvation IN" mortal man.

For as Christians we believe 'there IS Salvation IN NTHER name - than CHRIST". Man does not have salvation IN HIM - rather Christ is the one that SAVES - Christ ALONE is the Savior.

My point as stated in text - remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are failing to recognize that Ecclesiastes is viewing life from the horizontal level of human observation or as Solomon repeatedly says "under the sun."

You are failing to recognize from this stated perspective the vehicle of soul expression is the body and when the body is laid under the sod, it ceases to serve as the vehicle of expression of the soul "under the sun." Hence, all such expression CEASES under the sun.

You are failing to recognize that the soul does not go into the grave at death, but nevertheless, that is the basis of your argument about David in Acts 2 and other places which your own interpretation of Matthew 10:28 refutes.

You are failing to recognize that a bioloigcal living person can be "dead" at the same time in a spiritual sense (Eph. 2:1,5; with Gen. 2:17).

You are failing to recognize that God breathed into man a PLURAL "lives" and more than mere ANIMAL life or BIOLOGICAL life, but SPIRITUAL life, so that man can fellowship with God as worship can only be performed in the realm of "spirit" (Jn. 4:24). However, you have man no different than an animal in his created state.

 

"The body returns to the DUST" Eccl 12 - it does not sleep.

No text says "the body sleeps in death".

In fact in 2Cor 5 - the body is decaying even when alive and "returns to dust" in death. The soul "SLEEPS in the dust" but the body IS The DUST.

The spirit has "returned to God who gave it" (the state for ALL death - not just the righteous) and because the soul is in the unclothed state of 2Cor 5, and the body associated with it is mere "dust" -- it is the soul that sleeps, or is dormant.

For that we have only "you" as the "text".

He brings with him - those WHO SLEEP.

The spirit that returns to God is the remaining element of the soul - the person - AND is Dormant.

Your inference does not survive the Bible texts stating that all that worship, thought, memory is not active at all during the time of death.

Thus the "DEAD in Christ" rise first.


So again, your arguments do no match the scriptures you are trying to use, or abuse.