Severed from Christ Fallen from Grace - is LOST

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Your much imagined doctrine that the "Saved state" is "Severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" has no Bible support but your own hopeful desire to rescue the OSAS of Calvinism.

    There is no Bible support for that at all.

    Rather - the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

    Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

    The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.


    Severed from Christ -- is lost.

    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2013
  2. The Biblicist

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    First, I hold to no such doctrine. You are stating the very opposite of what I believe and have stated. I have never said the "Saved state is severed from Christ and fallen from Grace." Never! I have said the very reverse. This fallen from grace has nothing to do with their "saved state" or "position" in Christ but they have fallen from the DOCTRINAL TEACHING or "TRUTH" of grace which Paul delivered and they received.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The text says no such thing. What it says is to be severed from Christ in this sense is to lose all ability to produce fruit - "without me ye CAN DO nothing." He does not say he that abides in me, this sense, wll be saved but only will bear "much fruit."

    In regard to salvation they have already been made "clean because of the word I have spoken to you."

    The subject of this analogy is fruit bearing not salvation. Notice that the consequence of fruit productivity is not salvation either but experiential blessings of salvation:

    1. Answered prayers
    2. Joy
    3. close fellowship
    4. etc.

    The life of the believer is to manifest the life of a "disciple" or "follower" in faith and practice. This refers to their LIFE of works not their STATE of salvation.

    Fruit productivity is the work of the Holy Spirit as they yeild themselves to his leadership. Hence, their "life" is an extension of themselves because as a man thinketh IN HIS HEART so is he in his life. The "life" of the believer is "redeemed" in regard to "TIME" (Eph. 5:16). The "TIME" redeemed is that time under the control of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). Any other "TIME" is not redeemed but LOST, BURNED, WASTED.

    To LIVE "in Christ" experientially through submission to the HOly Spirit is to produce much fruit and every moment not in submission to the Holy Spirit is LOST, WASTED, BURNED and that is YOUR LIFE.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Your much imagined doctrine that the "Saved state" is "Severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" has no Bible support but your own hopeful desire to rescue the OSAS of Calvinism.

    Sadly you are trying to have it "both ways"

    Claiming that in Gal 5:4 is the SAVED that are "Severed from Christ and Fallen From GRACE" - and this is their condition as they REMAIN saved!

    You thus includes this as part of the valid states for the SAVED.

    All the while you appear to know that you cannot just come out and admit it - in so many words.

    How in the world did you hope to rescue your view of OSAS from that problem???

    No Bible text supports the idea that you can be SEVERED from Christ and fallen FROM Grace - and still be saved.

    No - not even one.


    Nothing in Gal 5 says that they are saved in that condition.


    Rather the Bible says that to be SEVERED FROM Christ - is to be burned in the fire.

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.



    You ask us to "imagine" that what we read in John 15 is of the form "He who does not do what I wish - will be severed from Me and there it will be found that he produced less fruit while severed".

    Instead we have the one CONNECTED to Christ bearing LESS fruit and when all else fails - he is THEN SEVERED - and dries up - dies and is burned in the fire - not rejoined to Christ as a bunch of ashes.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2013
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Again, you are reading YOUR DOCTRINE into my position which I have never believed or ever will believe.

    I have placed my exposition of Galatians 5:4 on the forum under its own thread. You are welcome to see if you can overthrow it from a contextual based exposition. Please read it in full before attempting to respond as you seem to place words in my mouth I have never stated.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Your circular argument is that "since we can never accept a denial of OSAS then becoming lost cannot happen by accepting false doctrine. Since Paul says they have accepted false doctrine - he cannot be serious about saying they have actually been severed from Christ, or fallen from Grace".

    You simply offer yet another circular argument.

    You are using a gimmick - you have already stated that you view the Gal 5:4 condition as one for a saved person - who has accepted some bad doctrine but remains saved because after all - OSAS must be true no matter what the details in the text of Gal 5:4 to the contrary.

    You have stated that fallen from Grace - severed from Christ- is not a condition of the lost in Gal 5:4 but of the saved who have recently accepted false doctrine - but remain saved because this is a valid state for the saved (because it must be true for OSAS to survive the text - no matter the details in the text to the contrary).

    =========================

    Your argument is with the text itself.

    5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again (do not return to your former lost state) with the yoke of bondage.
    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (as is the case with all the lost)
    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
    7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
    8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
    9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

    The contrast is between obeying the truth, joined to Christ, under Grace, in the hope of righteousness by faith ---- vs the lost state - severed from Christ, fallen from Grace, Christ is of no effect for you, leavened with sin, under law - not grace -- lost.

    No longer joined to Christ - no longer as the bride of Christ.

    NKJV

    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    NASB

    . 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace


    All of these define and describe the lost state -

    Fallen from Grace
    Severed from Christ
    estranged from Christ
    Christ has become of no effect unto you

    If such a one is saved apart from Christ - then they are their own savior.

    Oh what lengths to go in utter imagination to defend Calvinist OSAS.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jun 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2013
  7. The Biblicist

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    Deal with my OP on this subject instead of pretending you know the reasons when you obivously do not, and are not addressing them.

    I will predict that you will do everything else but directly deal with the five detaled contextual based evidences I have presented. No, I am not claiming to be a prophet.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Hint - this is my thread - the OP is mine.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Hint, it is a worthless op and you may keep it all to yourself.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    The two texts in the OP that you seem to find so offensive and 'worthless' are Gal 5:4 and John 15.

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]

    By contrast if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

    Quote:


    Biblicist - Your much imagined doctrine that the "Saved state" is to include those in Gal 5:4 "Severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" has no Bible support but your own hopeful desire to rescue the OSAS of Calvinism.

    There is no Bible support for that at all.

    Rather - the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

    Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

    The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.


    Severed from Christ -- is lost.

    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

    =======================

    That is because your argument "is with the text".

    The mere quote of them gives rise to your objections and claims that they are "worthless".

    But this would not be the case - were you not so stuck on trying to get Calvinism's OSAS to survive these texts.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    I reject the idea that the "saved state" is "severed from Christ and fallen from grace." I believe it is the "Mental understanding of grace" that been "severed from the doctrinal truth of gospel of grace."



    No, that is not my position at all! The STATE of salvation can never be severed from Christ. Only the UNDERSTANDING of grace can be severed from "THE TRUTH" of the gospel. It is called "being deceived" doctrinally in regard to their MINDS not their POSITION of grace.


    I agree and I do not believe that is possible. But one can be MENTALLY led astray without losing ones salvation.



    I agree because such a condition does not exist.


    R
    Fire is a symbol of judgement but nowhere in this text does it say this is the LAST or final day of Judgment. There are temporal judgements by God long before the day of Judgement and this is one of them. The only "fire" that will try true Christians in the day of final judgment is described in 1 Cor. 3:14-15 and it has nothing to do with ultimate justification by works for entrance into heaven but only for gaining or loss of rewards.
     
  12. Thomas Helwys

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    Bob, you have offered several among many glaring proofs that OSAS is not found in scripture. Neither is it found in the entire history of the church until it was invented by a legalistic, determinist persecutor and murderer in the 16th century. It is thus to be rejected as a false gospel.
     
  13. 12strings

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    Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “Such a soul [of a Christian] shall never at any time be separated from God…Faith, I say, is something divine, which cannot be pulled asunder by any other worldly friendship, nor be dissolved by present fear.”

    Tertullian: “God forbid that we should believe that the soul of any saint should be drawn out by the devil…For what is of God is never extinguished.”
     
  14. Thomas Helwys

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    Thank you for the quotes, but they are not affirming of OSAS. They do not speak to a willful rejection of one's salvation. I am, btw, well-acquainted with the Fathers and their beliefs.

    As I said, OSAS was unknown before Calvin. Calvinism involves the will. It denies that man has the ability to choose.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Neither of these quotes addressed the issue of the one saved who is then "severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 -- rather they address the innability of Satan to wrest the soul from Christ - but not the loss of free will to choose to fail to persevere.

    Those severed from Christ - die and wither up into tinder and are burned in the fires of hell. John 15:1-9

    "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others - I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    The Bible is wholly sufficient to defend OSAS and condemn those who oppose it at best deceived and at worst enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
  17. steaver

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    Here is your qualifier...."free will to choose to fail to persevere"

    You give three references, Gal 5:4 , John 15:1-9 and 1Cor 9.

    None of these three references speak anything of the one's being addressed that they are freely choosing to not have faith in Christ anymore.

    So these passages have nothing to do with free will choosing to stop believing in Jesus Christ.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    In my statement above I stated specifically "fail to persevere".

    1John 2:3-6 speaks specifically to the false claim to believe in Christ and yet to fail in obedience to the Word.

    Gal 5:4 speaks to being "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" - not to a claim of being an atheist - simply reverting to false doctrine after accepting the true gospel.

    In John 15 the claim is not "they became atheists" but simply that while connected to the vine "Christ" - they were slow to produced fruit or failed to produce it after being pruned.

    Details matter.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    The Bible only condemns OSAS as we see in Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" and in Gal 5:4 and in John 15.

    if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.



    - the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

    Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

    The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.


    Severed from Christ -- is lost.

    John 15:
    2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
    and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
    3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
    5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
    for without Me you can do nothing.
    6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
    and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
    and it shall be done for you.
    8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Jul 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2013
  20. steaver

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    The "detail" which must be considered is Paul's teaching that it is ONLY by faith one is standing justified before God. Thus, this is the first question we must ask when approaching a passage of scripture for OSAS consideration.

    Take the scriptures you referenced for example. Do they speak of a born of God Christian deciding they no longer believe in Jesus Christ?

    1John2:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." What does this verse declare? It does NOT declare OSAS is false, it DOES declare this type of person was never saved, they are liars. As Paul told the Corinthians, "examine yourselves, know ye not how that Jesus Christ is in you? Except ye be reprobates". All throughout the scriptures we are warned of false confessors and it is the false confessors who are being warned not to be just pretending to follow Jesus, for this pretending will not save.

    Gal 5, again, I will not post it all out here, anyone can go read it. It says NOTHING about a person deciding to NOT believe in Jesus Christ anymore.

    John 15, same thing, no one is said to have stopped believing in Jesus Christ, the passage is about bearing fruit.

    So none of these three passages speaks of the saved deciding to not believe anymore, and it is ONLY by faith in which a saved person stands justified before Go. Not by fruits, not by works, not by obedience to the law, these are all evidences of the true born of God.

    You have not shown a passage which declares a truly saved person has decided to walk away and not believe anymore.
     
    #20 steaver, Jul 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2013

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