Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Jul 31, 2003.

?

Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?

  1. Yes

    100.0%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    This poll is to determine how many people believe that God exercises providential control over all calamitous events that transpire in the world. The question is taken directly from Amos 3:6.
     
  2. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    oops voted yes but meant to vote no....
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Timothy,

    Yeah, I had to think a second about that one. It is kind of a tricky question to get the "yes" or "no" right, but the implication of the question is obvious.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
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    Let them know that all their troubles came from the hand of God’s providence and from the counsel of his will (v. 6): Shall there be evil in a city, in a family, in a nation, and the Lord has not done it, appointed it, and performed what he appointed? The evil of sin is from ourselves; it is our own doing. But the evil of trouble, personal or public, is from God, and is his doing; whoever are the instruments, God is the principal agent. Out of his mouth both evil and good proceed. This consideration, that, whatever evil is in the city, the Lord has done it, should engage us patiently to bear our share in public calamities and to study to answer God’s intention in them.

    -- Matthew Smith
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    IF God is not in control, He is not sovereign.

    Now He doesn't have to MAKE men do evil; they opt for that of their own depth of depravity.

    But God is in control. He knows our actions and our bent for sinning.
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Obviously, when Amos asked "Shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?" he expected a "no" answer. Amos believed all calamities which befell a city were directed by the moving hand of God.

    Would someone who answered "yes" care to explain why you disagree with Amos?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. David Mark

    David Mark
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    Thank you Dr. Griffin.

    I need a sovereign Heavenly Father.

    [​IMG]

    Dave
     
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Oh, great, so now you're saying God is evil, Mark? After what you posted on the Holocaust thread, why am I surprised? :rolleyes: and the first time I posted you accused me of being a blasphemer! :eek:

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  9. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    I'm not sure I understand the logic here:

    "God is sovereign."

    "So God causes evil things to happen."

    "No, God lets them happen."

    "So, God could stop them if God wanted to but doesn't."

    "Yes."

    "So God is evil?"

    "No."

    Huh?

    Part of the message of the cross for me is that God is also a victim of the brokenness of the world. Otherwise, God comes across as a sadistic maniac.

    Joshua
     
  10. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    no, he's just quoting the bible.
    but understand evil can mean trouble or tribulation...
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Joshua,

    To start with, "evil" does not necessarily mean "sin" but rather "bad" or "calamity." God does not sin. God does send calamity on man - both on the righteous and the wicked.

    However, the Scriptures consistently teach that God does move and overule the wicked deeds of men to bring calamity on other wicked people, or, for that matter, on godly people. A man cannot believe in the Bible without believing this, which is, I highly suspect, a large part of the reason that liberals such as yourself reject the authority of the Bible.

    Are you suggesting that God cannot stop the bad things from happening? Are you suggesting that things are out of control?

    If God is in any sense a "victim" He is only willingly so. The Father willingly gave the Son to day and the Son willingly layed down His life.

    As a matter of fact, the cross presents the brightest illustration of the fact that God uses the deeds of wicked men to accomplish His purpose. For Peter said to Jews on Pentecost,

    "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

    Therefore, we - "we" meaning those of us who are authentic Christians who actually believe the Scriptures - cannot ignore the fact of God's providential control over all events, even the deeds of wicked men.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Mark,

    I accept that God allows evil - otherwise it wouldn't happen - but to say that He is the author of that evil is something else.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  13. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Matt,

    Obviously God allows evil. But the Scriptures go farther than that. The Scriptures teach that He does evil - not evil in the sense of sin, but evil in the sense of calamity.

    Sometimes God does does the "evil" directly - such as when He sends a flood, a famine, an earthquake, an epidemic. At other times He uses evil men as instruments to accomplish it - such as the Assyrian invasion, the Babylonian captivity, the trials of Joseph.

    In either case, God uses all events to judge the wicked and to bless those who love Him. As Paul has said,

    "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness."

    And again,

    "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgements and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things; to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Certainly God is sovereign. That is a given. But I don’t believe that God allows... in the sense that He gives permission. But he does let it happen.

    The Jewish mindset would see that everything comes from God. But our Amercian mindset is more of a Greek philosophy. I think that is where the problem lies.

    We cannot not so clearly define a line between man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty. Regarding Pharoah: If there were not the confrontation there would have not been the rebellion. The confrontation is by God. In that sense it comes from God.


    The message is that God wants us to glorify Him and when we don't, we get the consequences of that wrong.

    One of our responsibilities comes from Ro 10:11-15 "For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"
     
  15. DCK

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    That God is sovereign over both good and evil seems abundantly clear from Scripture (in addition to the Amos passage, cf. Isaiah 45:7; Lamentations 3:37-38; Job 2:10; Ecclesiastes 7:14). He uses both for His purposes (Proverbs 16:4). Although God does not stand behind evil in the same way He stands behind good, He is sovereign over both. After all, if the Lord is not in full control, why bother praying to Him? He would be a very undependable God if in fact He had no influence over evil.
     
  16. Haruo

    Haruo
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    As Ahab said in Moby-Dick (excerpted from a current thread on Ishmail about the possible moral imperative to challenge God:
    Haruo
     
  17. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Hmmmm, we have about a 50-50 split between those who agree with Amos and those who don't. This poll could speak volumes about the current theological rift among "Baptists."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  18. Dina

    Dina
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    The way that I always understood it, is this.
    God is the author of Good. Satan is the author of evil. God *allows" evil, as it can be used as a lesson later, or turned for good.
     
  19. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
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    Hmmm… I don’t know if anyone actually disagrees with Amos, they just disagree regarding the meaning and application of Amos’ words.

    The verse in question comes immediately after a quick series of six questions that affirm that Israel is being judged. Amos tells his hearers that the calamity coming upon them is most certainly from God because of their covenant relationship with Him.

    Wrenching that verse from the context of this specific judgment is a poor way to build a theology.
     
  20. Kent Witcher

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    Everything that happens is dependent on not only the will of God but his active hand from the very great to the very minute detail. From the tornado, to the spring raing, from the famine to the single blade of grass that is pushed up from the ground by the finger of God. And everything else in between.

    As Paul said in the book of Acts

    In him (God the creator) we live and move and have our very being.

    Were there no God there would be nothing. Were God not actively involved in all things chaos would ensue.

    Some would argue that the earth is like a clock or some other machine that God wound up way back when and let it go. This reminds me of a news clip I read about a man who bought a new Winnebago and started home down the freeway in California. Feeling drowsy he set the cruise control and went in the back to take a nap. In short order he and his new Winnebago crashed and burned because like the earth and all that's within Winnebago's don't have autopilot!
     

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