"...shalt surely die."

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Dec 12, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    What do you think?

    Where did Ezekiel get those words when he said, "The soul that sinneth; it shall surely die?" Ezek 18:20 And where he got it -- wouldn't that tell us something about what death is and what dies?

    It was Gen 2:17, wasn't it? "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    What died? Adam's and Eve's SOULS, right? Not their bodies or spirits, but their souls died "surely"/immediately. (Some theologies do grave harm to scripture and to sotierology by lumping soul and spirit together as one.)

    Death of the soul, therefore, is separation from God and it was in this sense --- they didn't want to be with God anymore. Therefore, man is NOT totally dead "Lazarus-like" on account of sin. Adam, Eve, and WE still had the ability to hear (physically) and respond (spiritually) to God --- they/we just didn't want to see Him.

    So what does Ezekiel 18:20 tell us about "sin nature?"

    1) Before sinning, we are innocent as Adam was before the "apple." Were we to die in that state (infancy, mental incapacity), we would go to God. Sin nature is merely the innate propensity to sin.

    2) Sin causes us to "hide" from God -- not Him to hide from us. He still seeks us out and we still -- we're not dead physically nor spiritually -- can hear Him and, in our spirits, respond to Him. We call our necessary response "believing."

    That is why there is preaching, friend. Preaching is NOT empty, vain proclamation that helps you find out that you are or are not "elect." It is meant for you, like Adam, to hear and have a change of YOUR spirit!

    3) Further, Ezek 18:20 assures us that we are NOT guilty of any ancestor's sin! And if you just think about justice, you know that it is wrong to accuse anyone of something they didn't do. The notion that we are guilty of Adam's sin is ludicrous both scripturally (Ezek 18:20) and judicially. Do you think an infant soul will be hauled before the judgment seat of Christ and condemned for something he/she didn't do? It amazes me if this was "lawyer" Calvin's assertion!

    skypair
     
  2. skypair

    skypair
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    OK...

    At least 25 views. Where's all the "constructive criticism??"

    Is Adam's experience not the same as every one of us?

    "Sin nature" -- does it or doesn't it mean what I offered?

    OR are these just irrufutable facts? :thumbs:


    skypair
     
  3. J.D.

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    So then babies stand before God's judgement on the basis of their own righteousness. Is that what you are implying? They don't need Christ?
     
  4. Rippon

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    SP's up to his old tricks again . SP : There are too many errors in your OP for me to tackle in this post . Suffice it to say all are indeed physically dead before being made alive . Stands to reason , right ? If some are made alive -- they were dead previously . You need a refresher course in Ephesians 2:1-5 , Col. 2:13 and John 5:21 .

    And , you constantly dredge up John Calvin in order to vilify him . You are doing something that you claimed you do not do . It's SP against SP .
     
  5. webdog

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    ...AND if they were dead previously, they had to have been alive at some point to die! Hence "born again"
     
    #5 webdog, Dec 13, 2007
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  6. J.D.

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    They were dead in Adam "in Adam all die" 1 Cor 15:22
     
  7. webdog

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    How is one "in Adam" and "in Christ" from that passage? By being a willing participant in each, in Adam by sinning, and in Christ by sharing His death, burial and resurrection. You would have to hold to universalism if all are automatically in Adam, as the text states so also all are in Christ.

    No such thing as being born "dead" without having life initially. That definition is closer to non existence, not death.
     
    #7 webdog, Dec 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2007
  8. J.D.

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    From Desiring God (John Piper):

    Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
    Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.
    Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
    There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

    Logging off. Will check back later.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Man doesn't have a soul, he is a soul:

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    nephesh translated soul

    Animals are also "souls".

    Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

    nephesh translated creature.
     
  10. webdog

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    I've read that (Piper's explantation), and he doesn't do the text justice, nor his pasting of different texts to support his claim (Eph. 2:2-3 dealing with the mindset that the jews were more special than the "gentile sinners" and not about being created dead).

    Fact is death is the "termination of life" This is what death is. To be created dead is an impossibility, physically, spiritually, and logically. We KNOW what death is.
     
  11. webdog

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    Spirit and soul are used interchangeably in Scripture, with the context determining the meaning.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    I always thought that in Scripture death means separation (Jas 2:26). How is that termination of life?
     
  13. Grasshopper

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    nope.....................
     
  14. webdog

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    It's both. When our physical life is terminated, our soul is separated from our body. When our spiritual life is terminated, our soul is separated from God. In both, it is still the termination of life.
     
  15. webdog

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    So are you saying "nope" to their use being interchangeable, or "nope" because you don't like the answer? Many calvinists are dichotomous, btw, and see this in the same light as me.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    "nope" because they are not interchangeable. Unless you can show me that the "spirit" can eat, drink, and be merry or has a mouth, has lips, has blood, weeps, can touch or be touched etc........
     
  17. webdog

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    The Hebrew translated "soul" is nephesh. According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionary it can have the following meanings: "soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, appetite, emotion, and passion." The Greek translated soul is pseuche. According to the Liddel-Scott Lexicon, it has the following meanings: "breath, life, spirit, ghost, heart, mind, understanding, appetite."

    The Hebrew translated "spirit" is ruach. According to BDB, it can have the following meanings: "breath, wind, spirit." The Greek translated "spirit" is pneuma. According to LS, it has a variety of meanings, such as: "blowing, a blast of wind, gentle breeze, breath, spirit."

    There are two verses in the OT where the Hebrew word for spirit is used, but the LXX uses the Greek word for soul (Isaiah 58:11; Jeremiah 38:12).

    With the wide variety of meanings of both the Hebrew and Greek words (some of them overlapping), and the usage (at least twice) of two different words in Hebrew and Greek in the same verses, it is extremely hard to come to a definite doctrine of either di- or tri-.

    I tend to lean towards them being interchangeable, 2 sides of the same coin, or at the very least connected like "joints and marrow".
     
  18. Amy.G

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    Isn't Ez 18:20 referring to physical death? It's not about eternal death. This passage deals with punishment (death) to the person who commits a sin and that person only. The father is not punished for the sons sin or vice versa.

    Back up to verse 19 and this is clear.


    Eze 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
    Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
     
  19. skypair

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    No, sir. They do not appear at a judgment seat. They are resurrected into the MK after the OT saints are resurrected and judged. You will see this in Isa 49:20-23 (Notice that "kings" bring them -- the adults have been judged [Mt 25:14-46] and given their rewards/"kingdoms" and now bring the children to Israel to see Jesus and believe.).

    Infants are not condemned or saved -- they are innocent. They will be judged during the MK as they grow to adulthood like all who live in it.

    skypair
     
  20. skypair

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    You're missing 2 points: 1) "surely die" is exactly what God said about Adam if he ate from the tree. In that case, Adam didn't die physically immediately. Therefore, 18:19 speaks of punishment "handed down" by God.

    2) It is in keeping with God's justice as well to punish only the ones who actually sin. If you are trying to say that anyone would punish the son for the father's sin, you are unjust, but God is not unjust (as your assertion presumes).

    skypair
     

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