Shame On Trinity

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by Martin, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. Martin

    Martin
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    I found this interesting...

    Dr Edward Martin, of Liberty University philosophy department, is also the program director for the department of philosophy at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary.

    He has all the right degrees. See his Vitae here.


    I wonder why someone who is on the faculty at Liberty University would want to be connected to a school like Trinity. The man has a MA and a PhD in Philosophy from Purdue University, and a MA in the Philosophy of Religion and Systematic Theology from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He has presented papers at the Evangelical Theological Society on more than one occasion. So why is he connected with Trinity College of the Bible and Seminary?

    Trinity is still a candidate for accreditation by Higher Learning Commission and an affiliate of the North Central Association. What I find interesting, however, is that this information is at the bottom of their accrediation page. What is at the top? Their "accreditation" by NAPNSC which is not a real form of accreditation. They also promote, on their main homepage, their endorsement from the Canterbury Christ Church University, Canterbury, England. That endorsement is meaningless. Yet Trinity continues to use it to mislead people who are ignorant of the facts of accreditation. Shame on Trinity. Hopefully they will not be allowed full accreditation by NCAHLC. Maybe the fact that they have buried their candidate status with NCAHLC below their "accreditation" by NAPNSC and their meaningless endorsement from Canterbury Christ Church University indicates that they don't expect to gain full accreditation?

    Christians should spend their money at schools that are fully accredited. There are plenty of distance education options open to Christians today. There is no reason for a Christian to sign up at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary. None.

    If Trinity really was the "proven leader in Theological Distance Education" they would be accredited. The fact that they are not accredited shows they are not a leader in anything in the world of education. They have promoted their meaningless endorsements for years. First they were endorsed by the University of Liverpool and now by the Canterbury Christ Church University. Both of those endorsements are 100% meaningless and for Trinity to pretend otherwise is dishonest. They have also claimed to be accredited by this NAPNSC for several years. NAPNSC is not a recognized accrediting agency. So Trinity has been dishonest about this as well.

    How can a true Christian school be this dishonest in its representation of itself? I ask you that question and I am going to email Dr Martin and ask him that very same question.

    Shame on Trinity!

    Wew, I feel much better now :saint: .
     
  2. Rhetorician

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    Response

    Martin,

    It may be that Dr Edward Martin is trying to help the school with no accreditation to raise their status a bit. This he may see as his "mission's project." And then again it may be something as simple as one of his friends or colleagues in ministry may have asked him to come over and help them.

    I have found when I need to vent or something has made me some upset that if I will wait just a bit more information may soon turn up to placate any short-sightedness that I have have had.

    And secondly, when I have called into subjection the motives and/or actions of another person's servant; I have found that I have been guilty of minding another's business. It seems to me that the Scripture says that each of us will give account of himself to the Lord. And, that if a person stands or falls it is unto the Lord.

    Please do not take this as a rebuke on any level. I am just confessing out loud many a past error, bad judgment, and outright sin that has caused me personal and sometimes corporate grief.

    I really am glad we all have a place where we can go and "vent" or "dump" to relieve ourselves from time to time.

    sdg!:praying:

    rd
     
  3. Martin

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    ==Maybe, I did think about that. However my post was just to ask the question about someone of Dr Martin's stature being associated with a school like Trinity.


    ==I fully agree. I was not trying to question Dr Martin's motives. I was just wondering why he would wish to be associated with a school like Trinity. My "vent" was toward the dishonest practices of Trinity concerning their accreditation (or lack thereof). That has been a issue I have been concerned about for some time.

    I realize my post was somewhat on the harsh side and, to be clear, I mean every single word of it. Schools like Trinity, Andersonville, and Convington make all Christian/seminary distance learning programs look suspect.

    ==Thanks for the advice/caution. I probably needed that :thumbs: .
     
  4. PatsFan

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    Hey Martin,

    I'm a little mixed on Trinity. Their faculty and curriculum now are quite good. Their business and ethcial practices are another story.

    Dr. John C. Fyffe, Former V.P. for Marketing and Enrollment Services & Liaison to the President for Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary, posts sometimes on another board about his experiences working there. You might find his point of view interesting. He seems to agree with you. In fact, he was apparently fired when he pointed out some improprieties. Here's the link to his most recent comments

    http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1066
     
  5. Martin

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    Thanks!

    I have read some things written by Dr Fyffe before and I will be sure to read these as well. I agree with many of his conclusions.

    Btw, concerning the OP, I have not heard back from Dr Martin (at Liberty). I emailed him asking about his connection to Trinity. The email had a very different tone than the post so I am somewhat surprised that I have not heard back from him (yet?).
     
  6. nkypastor

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    I too, have become discouraged as a current student at Trinity. Dr. Fyffe's comments have shocked and dissapointed me.
     
  7. iknowsomething

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    Thanks for shedding some light on these types of schools, before one makes the mistake and doesn't seek accrediation... The link to the other discussion with the ex VP was most helpful on getting down to the issue of why I just wasn't comfortable with the idea of attending.
     
  8. paidagogos

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    Fairness?

    Martin, your bias against unaccredited schools is showing. Whereas there are legitimate criticisms against Trinity and the way they have done things, your spiel is more emotional than rational.
    • Every school begins as an unaccredited school. At one time, regional accreditors turned a jaundiced eye toward degrees entirely by distance education. Now, they are more amendable. So, distance education schools, such as Trinity, had to seek out new avenues for recognition because of the new and innovative methodologies. Trinity is not a degree mill although you may question its academic quality if you like.
    • It is in the interest of schools seeking accreditation to utilize the expertise and status of someone like Dr. Edward Martin. He is doing nothing wrong either. Perhaps he is helping them bring their standards in line with accreditation guidelines. If so, this is commendable.
    • NAPNSC is not a fly-by-night accreditor of degree mills. It was a legitimate attempt to create a recognized accreditor for distance education and alternative schools. It began much like TRACS. They have been unable to achieve this status but they have made credible effort. As far as I know, they are still seeking recognition.
    • Your casual dismissal and disparaging of foreign recognition is mistaken. Although it may not carry the same weight as regional accreditation in the US, it does hold sway in other countries. You are not accurate in labeling it meaningless.
    • Finally, you are too free and easy in calling Trinity dishonest. Dishonesty involves intent to defraud or deceive. You have not established said intent although you may argue your case about Trinity’s status and recognition.
    Thus, your argument is more emotional than cognitive.
     
  9. El_Guero

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    Paid

    I would agree to most of what you wrote. But, in light of the article linked above: there might be reason for emotionalism in this case.

    http://www.degreediscussion.com/foru...pic.php?t=1066

    This guy really does speak strongly against them. And if he is doing that by name (not being spoofed) then I would need to hear a truly second opinion that was not on their payroll.

    'Cause it did not read like a good organization. But, he could be a disgruntled employee that did not get the commission promised for luring in students, and now he is bashing them.
     
  10. Martin

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    Paidagogos,



    ==Actually my “spiel” is based on two primary facts.

    1. Trinity claims accreditation by NAPNSC. However they do not explain the fact that NAPNSC is not a US Dept. of Education approved accrediting agency. Nor do they explain the fact that most regionally and nationally accredited Universities and Seminaries in the United States will not accept academic credits or degrees from schools only accredited by NAPNSC. Thus Trinity leaves a false impression with prospective students who probably do not know enough about accreditation issues to make an educated choice and are, therefore, depending upon the schools to be honest and straight forward about their accreditation.

    2. Trinity claims an endorsement by Christ Church University in Canterbury. Trinity claims that its former endorsement by the University of Liverpool gave “Trinity degrees global recognition”. Both endorsements are meaningless in the United States educational system. Accredited schools will not accept Trinity credits or degrees based on either of these endorsements. So Trinity’s degrees do not have “global recognition”.

    In fact I contacted some schools a few years ago about accepting Trinity degrees. None of them, not one of them, would accept degrees or academic credits from Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary. I even contacted Luther Rice Seminary, now University, and they told me that they will not accept Trinity credits (etc). Why is that school important to this discussion? Because Luther Rice Seminary is nationally accredited by TRACS; and holds no regional accreditation. If Luther Rice will not accept Trinity credits what accredited school will?

    My beef is not with unaccredited schools per say. My beef is with unaccredited schools that gain unofficial, unrecognized accreditation and then pretend to be “fully” accredited. Trinity does this. If a prospective student reads Trinity’s accreditation web-page that prospective student will, if he/she does not research on the matter, walk away thinking Trinity is accredited and that its degrees are widely accepted.

    I am not “casual dismissal and disparaging of foreign recognition” in general. I am, however, “casual dismissal and disparaging of foreign recognition”, when that recognition means nothing in academic circles. Dr Fyffe’s comment on this is very important…



    So my post was not emotional rather than cognitive.

    Was my post emotional? Yes. I am constantly frustrated with schools that hold no recognized accreditation yet present themselves as being accredited with degrees that are widely accepted. Trinity’s degrees are not widely accepted. Few, if any at all, regionally accredited Universities or Seminaries will accept Trinity graduate degrees or academic credits. In fact most Universities and Seminaries require their teachers to hold degrees from regionally accredited schools. Therefore a person who graduates from Trinity with a “Doctor of Arts” degree is not qualified to teach at most, if not all, regionally or nationally accredited schools.

    However my post was not absent of cognitive points. In fact the entire premise of my post was cognitive (as outlined above).

    I might do further research on this matter. I wonder how many regionally accredited or nationally accredited Universities or seminaries will accept Trinity academic credits or degrees? As I said above it has been a few years since I last visited this point. Even though I know things have not changed, since Trinity is still not accredited, I think I will check around and see if I can find any regionally or nationally accredited school that will accept graduate degrees/credits from Trinity. Should be interesting...
     
  11. UZThD

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    IMO, and I was a TTS student for a year (2001) , representatives of Trinity flat out lied about the accreditation, quality, and utility of TTS degrees. And at least some of the doctoral program s of Trinity were, and maybe are, very deficient. I wrote NCA re my opinion.
     
  12. iknowsomething

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    I believe Master's Seminary, and one other that escapes my mind will take tranfer credits from Trinity.
     
  13. Martin

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    Don't quote me on this but I was told this morning that Luther Rice University DOES now accept credits from Trinity. This is a change from a few years ago when I checked on this. I don't know if the person in admissions who told me this was mistaken or not, but if it is true Luther Rice becomes an option for those who have credits from Trinity. That would be good because they could then go to Luther Rice and earn their MDiv from an accredited school.

    By the way Trinity Evangelical Divinity school does NOT accept credits/degrees from Trinity College and Seminary. The lady I talked to at Liberty was not familiar with Trinity. However she said that someone with a degree from Trinity "might" get accepted on probation at Liberty. However it is my experience that Liberty does not accept transfer credits from most non-accredited schools.

    I will add to the "Does" and "Does Not" list as I get more information.
     
    #13 Martin, Aug 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2006
  14. Martin

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    Are you talking about "The Masters Seminary"? Or Masters Divinity School?
     
  15. Martin

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    More on who will, will not, accept Trinity credits...

    This list is from some research I did in 2/05 on which schools will accept TRACS (only) accreditation. If a school will not accept TRACS, which is recognized by the Dept of Education, I doubt they will accept degrees from Trinity (which does not hold any offical accreditation).

    Duke Divinity School only accepts credits from ATS seminaries.

    Regent University accepts degrees/credits from ATS or regionally accredited schools.

    The Southern Baptist Seminary only accepts credits/degrees from schools that are at least regionally accredited. SBTS said that they do not even recognize degrees from TRACS (only) schools.

    Reformed Theological Seminary said they did not accept TRACS (only) accreditation.

    Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary does accept TRACS (only) but it must be course work done on campus.

    Moody Bible Institute only accepts credits/degrees from schools accredited by state/ABHE.

    New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary only accepts undergraduate credits/degrees from TRACS (only) schools.

    Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary said that they do accept degrees from Luther Rice (TRACS only).

    Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary does accept degrees from Southern Evangelical and Luther Rice (both TRACS only).

    Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary only accepts credits/degrees from schools that hold recognized accreditation.

    Trinity Evangelical Divinity School accepts TRACS (only) credits/degrees on a case by case basis, but does not accept any credits/degrees from Trinity College and Seminary (which is not accredited).

    Luther Rice University "now" says that they will accept transfer credits from Trinity. Not sure if this is correct but it is what I was told.

    This should show you that those who get graduate degrees from Trinity will have a limited number of schools they can transfer to.
     
  16. Rhetorician

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    Doctorate Degree

    To all who have an ear &;

    Martin,

    As you well know; one sure fire way to see if a school has a good academic reputation is this:

    Will a real world RA or ATS university or seminary accept their doctoral graduates to teach in their respective discipline?

    If they cannot produce or demonstrate any who have, on their graduate doctoral degree alone; then that is a "red flag" that there is something very very wrong with the education they offer!!!! The old adage, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" certainly applies here does it not?!

    This could be a "litmus test" almost "across the board."

    Think about it!

    Stay by the stuff!:thumbs:

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #16 Rhetorician, Aug 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2006
  17. Martin

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    ==That, of course, is 100% correct. Most, if not all, regionally accredited or ATS accredited schools require teachers to have degrees from regionally accredited or ATS accredited schools.

    One thing I am finding interesting, in this latest look into who will/will not accept Trinity degrees/credits, is that several schools are not even aware of Trinity. The admissions persons at Luther Rice, Liberty, and Dallas Theological Seminary all seem unaware of Trinity. That certainly refutes Trinity's claim of being a leader in theological distance education! When I last looked into this, several years ago, I did not run into that question. I wonder if Trinity's popularity is dropping since it is becoming more widely understood that they are not really accredited?
     
  18. Rhetorician

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    Teaching Credential

    FYI! to all who may not know!

    I teach at a small Baptist college. I have grad work in two areas; Rhetoric/Communication & Religion. To be RA (SACS) accredited and keep our accreditation we must hold to the following standards. To teach college you must have a Master's degree of some type from an RA college or university. It could be in "remedial basket weaving," it does not matter. Coupled with that, you must have a minimum of 18 grad hrs in the area where you are presently teaching.

    An example might be: although I have an earned doctorate &/39 hrs grad work in Rhetoric/Communication and two master's degrees in Religion, I must have 18 master's or doctoral hrs in Philosophy if my dean were to want me to teach in Philosophy. There are some wavers and extensions allowed by SACS with time limitations for someone w/a Religion major to get the needed hours at a local RA c or u.

    This has been discussed before but not in a while. I thought some might want to know in light of the present discussions.

    Thanks!:wavey:

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #18 Rhetorician, Aug 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2006
  19. iknowsomething

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    Martin, I meant Johnny Mac's school. And FYI, I've decided to enroll in Liberty's MARS distance learning, and see where I end up in a few years. I've just gotten another job offer, and I'd like to stay open like that (gotta pay for this somehow :) , so DL is the perfect solution. and OF COURSE WHEN I"M OLDER! I'll settle down, and roll into a MDiv at a traditional school.. lol
     
  20. Martin

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    I talked to someone yesterday at Masters Seminary. He told me the person I needed to talk to was on vacation but that they usually will look at the transcript and make a determination from that. I am surprised but I think that could be good for folks who have credits from Trinity and who want to earn their degree from an accredited seminary without losing credits they earned at Trinity.

    I hope you enjoy the program at Liberty. They work hard to keep their program up to date and meaningful, and it shows. What concentration are you going to do?
     

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