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Shame On Trinity

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Martin, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Accreditation confusion

    Martin and Rhet, I have the greatest appreciation for both of you guys but I find that you are too closed minded on this subject. Absolute statements are usually absolutely wrong. There are exceptions. I am not arguing for lowered standards but I will argue for an open mindedness for the existence of non-accredited schools. You cannot saddle me with the lowered standards argument because you have my track record of arguing for academic rigor and you have read my criticisms of Andersonville, Covington, etc. BJU has proven that unaccredited does not necessarily mean lower standards although they are now a candidate for accreditation. Although I was usually on the other side of the debate, I somewhat agree with Steve Levicoff on TRACS accreditation.

    Martin, I think you missed every single point that I tried to make. You obviously do not understand my position because you argued against things I have not suggested and do not believe.

    Whereas your opinions may appear valid within your own world, there are other groups of Christians who believe and live differently from you. Because you appear oblivious and ignorant of their beliefs and circumstances, I contend that you cannot make an absolute statement that encompasses them. Yes, Martin, I do know Christians for whom finances are a real problem because they do not have access to the scholarships, aid and grants that you mentioned.

    Martin, please forgive me for not specifically answering your post but it was so far afield from my position and points that I dispair of sorting through the morass. No insult is intended. I just don't have the time and energy to wade through a muddled rebuttal.
     
  2. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    Agree or Not People Should Be Careful

    ==Bob Jones University is not the normal nonaccredited school. Students who graduate from Bob Jones can use its reputation to move forward in their academic careers (even though BJU's lack of accreditation may close some doors).

    I am not against unaccredited schools just to be narrow minded or mean. I am against graduate level unaccredited programs because the degrees they hand out don't have the level of acceptance in the academic/business community as accredited degrees do. For better or worse that is the way it is.

    Some states simply don't allow nonaccredited institutions to hand out degrees. That is a positive practice, one I would like to see done in all 50 states.

    ==Honestly I was making more general points about the level of graduate education. Every statement I made, in my reply, is factual.

    ==So? I live in the world of education. I come from a family of teachers and even one dean who has done site visits for SACS and NCATE. I have an associates degree, bachelors degree, a masters degree, and I am in the process of earning a second masters. I have read more than enough catalogs and talked with plenty of admissions departments and friends of mine who are in various college education departments. Point? I am very familiar with what accredited schools require and what they will/will not accept. I can't help it if a person wishes to disagree with me. However I would advise people to take what I say in to strong consideration before applying to most any unaccredited school (mainly nonaccredited distance learning). I am not asking people to take my word. Take what I, and others here, have said and do your own investigation. Talk to people in admissions departments at major seminaries and Universities. Ask the questions. You will find that, in large part, what I have said here is correct. Unaccredited graduate degrees have a very limited usefulness. Most accredited seminaries/universities will not acknowledge the degrees/credits and therefore will not accept a person into their doctoral programs. People with unaccredited doctoral degrees have little chance of getting a job in an accredited seminary/university.

    ==I think pell grants are open to most anyone and most churches will help send called men/women to seminary (if needed). Sometimes employers will also help. I can see some situations where that may not be there but most people can get some sort of assitance.

    Btw, why is this an argument for attending an unaccredited graduate program?
     
  3. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

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    Hello brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you for allowing me to be part of your fellowship, conversations, thoughts and debates.

    This thread was of interest to me after reading several unfavorable opinions about Trinity and the NAPNSC. I don't like judging others so I will not. I will only point out the facts the way I see them. The ex-employees are making some not so nice comments about Trinity. I take them with a grain of salt. We are all human and have human emotions. If I were fired from my position, I too would be upset and probably unchristianly, use my anger or hurt feelings to make the place that fired me look bad. I have no interest in Trinity but I have talked with staff there in the past and exchanged emails when I was looking around for a distant doctorate program. They all were very nice. Dr. Shingley told me that I was not qualified for the degree I would have liked to take and gave me other options. He did not push or try to sale me the store so to speak. He was open and honest. A quality you would think a christian university faculty would possess. Anyway, Trinity is not breaking any laws or trying to befuddle folks out of their money. I is an okay school that is trying to make itself better. I wonder if that is why the folks were fired for this reason. There are always two sides to a story.

    The NAPNSC is a credible accreditation agency and not one of those set up by diploma mill operators to accredit their own school. This agency has real intentions and does a quality job in accrediting the schools they accredit. Secretary Margaret Spellings wrote a letter to me stating that accreditation agencies are not mandated to apply for and be recognized by the USDOE. It just means that those agencies can't participate in federal funds such as the Title IV funds. The NAPNSC is in process of application for recognition by the Secretary of Education. This agency is one of the very few unreconized agencies that are doing a legitimate job with accreditation. I know of two substandard schools that talked to the NAPNSC about accreditation. Neither ever followed up on pursuing accreditation because they knew the standards are too high for them.

    Use your Christian heart and not be judgmental. Give them a chance to prove that they are what they say they are. There are hundreds of phony and dubious schools out there, but in my heart, I don't believe Trinity is one of them.

    Here is a thought to mull over. There are several universities in South Africa, that are operating legitimately and the degrees are accepted here in the USA as equivilent to an RA degree. These degrees are more comparable to the more substandard schools most educators complain about as being diploma mills. One particular university stated this: you can earn life experience credits for your degree. Then you have another choice to earn your master's or doctorate: option one is to take a series of courses (about 7) or write a 100 page thesis.

    If this school was here in the states, it would be labled a diploma mill. But since it is coming from another country, it is legitimate. Ironically, if Trinity or any other university did that here, it would be defamed.

    I am just asking all of you to not judge and give them a chance. Good always wins out over bad. So, time will tell.

    your brother in Christ

    Robbie
     
  4. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==The people at Trinity being "nice" to possible students (customers) does not mean much of anything when it comes to academic issues. Now if Trinity is trying to make itself better why did they allow their regional accreditation chance to drop? The "no spin" answer is that they could not have offered PhDs (etc) the way they have done in the past, and have started doing again, with regional accreditation. It simply would not be allowed.

    ==NAPNSC is not a credible accreditation agency. They are not recognized by the US Dept. of Education or CHEA. Credits from schools soley accredited by NAPNSC will not be widely accepted at accreditd seminaries, universities, or colleges.


    ==So? If they are not recognized that means nothing. That is a fact in the world of education.

    ==While that is true it is also true that accreditation agencies that do not hold such recognition do not carry any weight in the academic world (secular or religious).


    ==Well it means "more" than that. NAPNSC has been seeking such approval for years and years and has never gained it. Unlike TRACS.


    ==Trinity has spent years misrepresenting their accreditation status to prospective students. I don't have to give them a chance I, and others, have already seen what Trinity is all about.


    ==Those schools are not in the United States and are not required to seek American accreditation. Trinity is in the United States and should seek real accreditation. It started the process but then let the ball drop.
     
  5. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    Robbie

    Please name the public university in South Africa , approved by SAQA -that is "accredited"-where (you say) one gets a doctoral degree by doing either seven courses or a dissertation of 100 pages.

    I have a ThD (DTh)from a public SA university , and I was in the Trinity PhD program for three courses in 2000. So, I know how these institutions would compare a few years ago.

    IMO Trinity has lied for years about its accreditation and quality (in grad work), and I will offer specific examples of this if you wish!

    Bill
     
  6. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Robbie Response

    Robbie,

    I am with UZThD on this one (as I am on most issues!:thumbs:). I considered doing a ThD like UZs but did not go through with it. I have done extensive research on the WWW and have never seen or heard of a claim that you quote.

    If you will produce that source, I will reconsider whether or not to do the doctorate. Please make me to know this school and its reputation and I will gladly consider continuing my education.

    sdg!

    rd
     
  7. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    This thread was of interest to me after reading several unfavorable opinions about Trinity and the NAPNSC. I don't like judging others so I will not. I will only point out the facts the way I see them. ...
    Use your Christian heart and not be judgmental...

    Here is a thought to mull over. There are several universities in South Africa, that are operating legitimately and the degrees are accepted here in the USA as equivilent to an RA degree. These degrees are more comparable to the more substandard schools most educators complain about as being diploma mills. One particular university stated this: you can earn life experience credits for your degree. Then you have another choice to earn your master's or doctorate: option one is to take a series of courses (about 7) or write a 100 page thesis.

    If this school was here in the states, it would be labled a diploma mill. But since it is coming from another country, it is legitimate. .. .


    -------------------------------

    Well Robbie,

    you've had time to come back and say which university in South Africa operating legitimately and accepted as the equivalent of accredited in the USA (and so, is approved by the South African Qualifcation Authority) offers a doctorate by either finishing seven courses or writing 100 pages...

    but..you've not done that, Robbie! So, ummmm, who is being judgemental or even untruthful...hmmmmmmmmm ?
     
  8. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    but..you've not done that, Robbie! So, ummmm, who is being judgemental or even untruthful...hmmmmmmmmm ?[/quote]

    --------------------------------------------

    But speaking of being untruthful, here are some things for YOU to mull over about Trinity. Remember, I was there in 2000.

    [qualification: some of these comments refer only to my experience in the Trinity PhD program in Bible in 2000 and the TTS program years before that]

    After speaking with a Ms Nakutis re the NCA committee considering Trinity for accreditation, I sent that committee a 12 page letter on July 8, 2003 with exhibits from Trinity literature to evidence each point:

    1. HOW TRINITY HAS LIED ABOUT ACCREDITATION

    In the 2001 Trinity student handbook TTS asserts that it has "global accreditation."

    Rick Walston on p42 of his Guide To Christian Distance Learning rightly says that this assertion confuses potential applicants.

    for this supposed global accreditation, then from the English Univ of Liverpool, the student fills out the "Accreditation Request Form" and pays $225 US dollars for which the graduate gets a glossy sticker on his diploma!

    What honest school does such shenanigans? As Steve Levicoff, DL Guru, and author of Name IT and Frame It states on degreeinfo and alt.education.distance (sites I no longer inhabit), "Trinity's accreditation is a hoax." Also, John Bear, who wrote "Bear's Guide To Distance Learning" says Trinity's accreditation is a major misrepresentation" (12-03-2000, alt.ed) Likewise, Jason Baker who wrote " Baker's Guide To Christian Distance Education" says the Liverpool accreditation of TTS is a "SHAM." (alt.ed. 10/3/98).

    UNfortunately , I did not take the time to research such experts before I enrolled. I supposed Christians would not tell such convincing misrepresentations, and I thought a qualified faculty =quality education--now I know it doesn't necessarily follow that way!

    If a pastor to be according to Paul (I Tim 3) should have the respect of outsiders HOW MUCH MORE should a school which teaches some to be pastors have that respect?

    For years Trinity practiced these deceptions and separated people from their money by devious mean.


    2. HOW TRINITY HAS LIED ABOUT UTILITY

    The 2001 TTS Catalogue claims "Liverpool's support for Trinity will be widely recognized as an assurance of quality."

    REALLY? Then name which accredited US seminaries in 2001 accepted the Trinity masters degree in Bible as the condition of entering an accredited doctorate in Bible.

    A TTS officer on 8-01-01 has this to say, "accreditation by the University of Liverpool opens up a whole new range of possibilties regarding the transfer of credits and degrees from Trinity to other institutions."

    IS THAT RIGHT? ya know , Robbie, "my" South African university of choice, Unizul, would not have accepted a degree from TTS as Dr. Arthur Song, then Dean of the Faculty of Religion and Theology implied an email by saying that UZ (and SAQA) only recognize regional l or national accreditation in US schools.


    3. HOW TRINITY HAS LIED ABOUT EXCELLENCE

    In the 2001 Trinity spokesmen make these false claims, and I have kept the pages from TTS literature as evidence:

    Trinity offers "WORLD CLASS EDUCATION."

    Trinity has "AN UNPARALLED STANDARD OF EXCELLENCE."

    Is that right? Then, remembering that I have the then required PhD curriculum,

    how is it that one could enter the PhD in Bible without any background in Biblical languages? Robbie, name ONE accredited school doing this.

    How is it that one doing a PHD in Bible is taking introductory courses in systematic theology using Wayne Grudem's text (fine for MDiv not for PhD!!!)

    How is it that one in a PhD listens to the very same cassette tapes that one in a BA listens to?

    Why would one doing a PhD in Bible be doing courses suitable to MDiv programs as "The Gospel of John" or "Biblical Hermeneutics" ?

    The bar of entry into the TTS PhD in Bible is set so low that such basic courses are suitable to the pool of PhD candidates. More rigor would result in drop outs, and thus the TTS teasure coffers would not be so full. We must decide, the thinking went, dolloars or rigor?

    And why would one doing PhD level work have his submissions evaluated by a one page "Assessment of Course Submission"requiring only that check marks be done by the prof, or the grader the prof has handed the work on to, on the form? Where, then, is the vital interaction between prof and student wherein the prof who loves his subject and his role leads the student into higher levels of critical thinking and scholarly expression???? These must not be lost when a transition is made to DE instruction. The student requires the prof to give substantial interaction for substantial learning to occur -IMO.

    re quality in DE instruction:

    Here's the thing. It is true that I'm an old man beginning a second career of distance ed course supervision of seminary courses and a little seminary classroom teaching. But I've been at this education thing for 36 years in the public schools both as teacher and as administrator. I have teaching credentials in Secondary language arts from the Univ of San Diego and in Handicapped Learner Education from Oregon State Univ and I was Co-ordinator of Learning Disabled Education for Wasco County Oregon. These 36 years of teaching occured in four districts and two states from 1969-2005. Then about a year ago, upon finishing the doc, I joined our little seminary in Salem, Or.

    I also have accredited (classroom type) MA MDiv (equivalency) and ThM degrees in Theology from two US schools and the THD from Unizul in South Africa, so I know a bit about how education should be done and what should be taught.

    Christian higher education done by distance must be rigorously done ; our Lord desrerves that, and His Word requires that! To that principle I commit myself.

    Robbie, this is my witness to you: The Trinity in 2001 lied and deceived and misrepresented both it accreditational status and its quality, and, as far as I know, Trinity has never recanted and/or repented. Dollars, not adherance to Christian ethics motivates TTS.

    The NCA , itself, states that a school's integrity is important, and , as I recall, the Bible has a word or two to say about lying!

    If I'm wrong, in any of the above, someone provide the evidence, and I will admit my mistakes!

    I should proofread this more, but must go on to other business, sorry for any errors,

    Bill
     
    #48 UZThD, Jan 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2007
  9. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    TRACS, NAPNSC and Trinity

    Martin, I’ll have to disagree with you about the NAPNSC accreditation. IMHO, NAPNSC has gotten a raw deal because (1) they were accrediting new and innovative schools, (2) they were accrediting in an area where there were no established criteria (at least when they began) and (3) they suffered from a bias because they did not quickly achieve DoE and CHEA recognition. When reviewing them sometime ago, the academic credentials of the major players, the accreditation requirements and a sincere work ethic with a commitment to quality impressed me.

    On the other hand, I was not overly impressed with TRACS during the same time frame but they seemed to have some advantages. Firstly, they were dealing in an established area of traditional education where the rules and standards were already well defined. Secondly, they had the advantage of the religious angle, which helped keep the government at arms length on First Amendment grounds. Thirdly, they were able to slip under the wire using the old 3 x 3 rule. Liberty University, already SACS accredited, was a big, big help in getting TRACS recognition.

    IMHO, it was a difference in circumstance more than a difference in quality between TRACS and NAPNSC. Personally, I would like to see NAPNSC gain recognition because we do need a specialty accreditor for non-traditional and highly innovative programs. The RAs still do a pretty lousy job with non-traditional, IMHO. DETC, a recognized accreditor of primarily trade and career schools (although they do accredit Global University), is not the best fit for non-traditional ed. One can effectively argue, I think, that NAPNSC has as good standards as DETC.

    Now, throw Trinity into this mix and you have a real enigma. At times, Trinity has shown real promise of gaining respectability. I have followed them since the time they were Toledo Bible College. Their problem seems to have been their unwillingness to forego doctorates without residence. I think shifting to a short residency model would have helped them a lot with accreditation. Then, they still stick to the ideas of credit for life experience and degrees primarily by dissertation. Both of these ideas are legitimate if the proper controls and standards are in place and enforced. The crux of the matter is that they would lose students and cash flow by imposing more rigorous expectations. In other words, they are more market driven than quality driven.

    The sad thing is that they could have an outstanding program. When I viewed their web site a few days ago, I saw plenty of folks with impeccable credentials in key positions to make a good DE program. This is different from all those other schools with excessive inbreeding and no real doctors on staff. They just need to change their focus from recruiting to providing top-notch instruction and improving standards.
     
  10. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Changes at Trinity?

    There seem to be some changes, hopefully for the better, taking place at Trinity. Because of their uneven and checkered past, one cannot help but be a little skeptical. However, some signs are postive. They appear to have some good people on board who may make a difference. Check out these faculty members: These appear to be working faculty members, not just showpieces. What do you think? Any opinions?
     
  11. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    Any answers?

    Martin, did you ever receive an answer from Dr. Edward Martin? If so, we are dying to hear!

    BTW, what do you think of guys who are doing a great job at respectable seminaries (e.g. Shepherds) having degrees from Trinity? Then, we have respectable profs lending their names and reputations to Trinity. Is it out of a desire to help and raise standards or is it the money$$$$?? I, for one, don't know. This is such a mixed ball of wax! What do you think?
     
  12. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==No, I have never heard anything.


    ==I don't understand someone who has degrees from Southern, Dallas, etc, working at a Trinity. Maybe they just needed a job? I don't know. As for the people who earned degrees from Trinity who are now doing well at respectable schools? I am happy for them I suppose. After all they beat the odds.
     
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