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Sheri Klouda PhD vs. SWBTS, Paige Patterson

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by preachinjesus, Mar 9, 2007.

  1. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews New Member

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    The seminary originally promised her tenure, both verbally and by hiring her to fill a tenure-track position. They broke their promise. Regardless of what they "allowed" her to do afterward, anything short of tenure would be a breach of promise. The Bible only forbids lawsuits between brethren. She's free from this restriction on two counts, as I see it. First of all, she's honored the Matthew 18 provisions well beyond what is required. She's allowed to consider those she is suing as pagans or tax collectors, not brethren, and in either case, the lawsuit prohibition doesn't apply. Second, according to a literal rendering of that passage regarding lawsuits, it only applies to men. Read it carefully. It says one brother against another. I see no prohibition that applies to women. No gender neutral language here.

    The other argument here is that her dismissal doesn't follow the SBC's own prescribed guidelines for those who serve as denominational employees. The only office restricted to women according to the Baptist Faith and Message, which is the seminary's official doctrinal guideline, is the office of Pastor. No matter how you slice it, being a seminary professor isn't a pastor.
     
  2. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Niether does she need to be in authority training Baptist Pastors.
     
  3. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Who says? Show me from scripture where a woman isn't allowed to teach a man who will eventually become a pastor and show me how merely teaching construes spritual authority.
     
  4. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

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    Please explain how suing ignores God's sovereignty. Couldn't God have sovereignly decided that she needed to sue?
    If i'm crossing the street, should I not look both ways?.... or should I just depend on God's sovereignty?

    I think God sovereignly gave me the brains to use to look both ways! :laugh: :godisgood:
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Dismissed professor files lawsuit against Southwestern seminary

    Source: http://www.abpnews.com/www/1844.article

    You can also get a pdf copy of the document that was filed by clicking on the link at the bottom of the same page.


    Dismissed professor files lawsuit against Southwestern seminary
    By Hannah Elliott
    Published: March 9, 2007



    FORT WORTH, Texas (ABP) -- Former professor Sheri Klouda sued Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary March 8, charging fraud, breach of contract and defamation for forcing her out.


    Klouda, who was hired in 2002 to teach Hebrew in a tenure-track position at the Fort Worth-based school, lost her job last year -- allegedly because of her gender. She filed the lawsuit in federal court.


    Her termination set off a firestorm in the Southern Baptist blogopshere. Klouda's supporters have filed complaints with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools and the Association of Theological Schools asking them to investigate Southwestern for “a serious breach” of accreditation guidelines in connection with the firing.


    Public outcry at the dismissal -- which has been reported not only in the blogs and Baptist news outlets but also the Dallas and Fort Worth daily newspapers, the Associated Press and Religion News Service -- has given gave the issue unexpected national prominence.


    Benjamin Cole, the pastor in Arlington, Texas, who filed the academic complaints, called Klouda’s dismissal a “terrible injustice.” Patterson’s “negligence has taken the seminary to a new low,” he said, adding that if school trustees do not hold Patterson accountable to the policies governing faculty tenure, then the federal courts should condemn the trustees and the president.


    “To quote the Apostle Paul, the civil authorities are no terror to those who do right,” he said. “But to those who do wrong, they are instituted of God to punish evildoers. If I was a trustee or administrator at Southwestern Seminary today, I think I would be terrified.”


    Klouda’s story first broke Jan. 17 in a post by Wade Burleson, an Oklahoma pastor who runs a popular blog about Southern Baptist Convention Life (kerussocharis.blogspot.com). Burleson said Klouda, who had received several grants and awards during her collegiate and seminary years, was dismissed by seminary president Paige Patterson because of her gender. The school didn’t want women teaching men in the theology department, Burleson said.


    Van McClain, chair of the school’s board of trustees, has said Klouda's hiring -- against the seminary's theological commitment that women should not teach prospective pastors -- was a "momentary lax" of the school's parameters. But he defended her firing, explaining in a letter posted on another Southern Baptist Blog that Klouda "did not have tenure and, like hundreds of professors around the U.S. every year, was told that she would not be awarded tenure.” The letter was posted on sbcoutpost.blogspot.com, whose proprietor is Georgia pastor Marty Duren.


    After Patterson became Southwestern's president in 2003, he personally assured Klouda the change in administrations would not jeopardize her position, she said. However, she said, school officials told her in 2004 she would not get tenure. Her contract was terminated in December of 2006, and she now teaches at Taylor University in Upland, Ind.


    The ATS Board of Commissioners has not taken any action in the matter.

    The suit is Klouda v. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, No. 4-07CV-161-A. It was filed in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas, Fort Worth Division. Klouda has retained an attorney from Tulsa, Okla.
     
  6. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    He quotes Paul, but does not quote the part about christians not suing each other. If they already have some rule about women not teaching in the theology dept, then she should never have been hired. If she does not have tenure then many are never given tenure as the article says,, I assume anyway, I wouldn't know. But that puts her equal with every other professor, except she chose to work at a christian school.
    I think theres a problem when we ask the secular courts to rule in matters of Christianity, her not teaching men is based on scripture. Someone made a mistake hiring her.
     
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Amen.

    Not to mention obeying the authority God has set over you.
    I love how they take the scripture out of its context and (as noted by Donna) and incomplete for their own purposes regarding:
    They should be terrified as they are not obeying the scirpture on one hand by not being yielded to God given authority and going against the scripture on the other by sueing the brethren in secular courts. She may teach the original Hebrew of scripture but apparently she doesn't pay much attention to what the scriptures actually say.

    I also love how they got her comments on an 'alleged' conversation between her and Dr. Patterson but FAILED to get any comments from him concerning the matter.


    I noticed also they don't say anything about those who are not opposed to the incident and speaking out in defence of it. This situation is quite commical in light of the fact this (firing) happens fairly often to many proffessors who are relieved of their possitions when New College or Seminary Presidents come on board (and is in line with their schools policy) and yet, she is big news for such a triffle matter. Especially when she is going about it in a nonbiblical way being a professor in a Bible College/Seminary.
     
    #47 Allan, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2007
  8. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    I posted a similar thread to this in this forum. Interesting conversation.
     
  9. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

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    I think it's funny. In this article:
    http://www.abpnews.com/www/1646.article

    Klouda said she was surprised at how the situation just ballooned. Now she's suing the seminary. Sounds to me like she's getting a little money-hungry.
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The OT provided for damages when a person was wronged. Does their willfull misconduct excuse them for their unethical behavior and treating people with a lower standard than the world. Christians should always do the right thing and go out of their way to make things ritght when it is in their power to do it. SWBTS did nothing except to say they "slipped" in judgment.

    They admitted their "slip" in judgment and should have also admitted their change in theology. They should have also admitted their hypocrisy too. They should have admitted their retaining of professors in schools other than theology who do teach men who will be or are currently pastors. The religious education and music schools have them. Do you really believe that SWBTS is so stupid to believe that no theology is taught in the music and religious education schools?

    The article failed to mention that about $150,000 was spent on a new addition to the presidents home to house his books and trophy animals while at the same time screaming for more money from the SBC to run the seminary. Call it what it is "greed". If you have done any reading reading you would have known that you failed to mention that Patterson refused to comment. Where is the Bible believeing SBC in all of this? These matters in a church should be dealt with by the pastors or elders in a church. Apparently nobody in the SBC believes the Bible enough to step up to the plate and call it what it is.

    You failed to mention that the SBC has been suing itself. How does that make you feel to know your CP money is supporting lawyers.

    Take a look at http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/

    Certainly there are those who believe what she is doing is nto biblical. When I was in the SBC I saw many ungodly things being done that are still being done. This matter is just the tip of the iceberg.

    She did not make the news. Others did it for her.

    Presidents are administrators not tenured professors. A tenured professor can be terminated as an administrator. Nobody has ever mentioned why the registrar was relieved of his duties when he cited substandard academics. That is the job of the registrar.

    When the SBC humbles itself it wil heal but until that time it will go down. God is not about saving the SBC. He is about saving people. The SBC has made the national news many times and it will continue to until it polices itself.

    When the BFA happened the federal agency stepped in. Several pastors warned about the matter early on but the SBC did not listen.

    Did you ever speak about the SBC suing itself in MO?
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Patterson should have given her the $150,000 spent on the president's home to house his books and trophy animals instead of her being wronged and leaving with a huge burden. He has his greed fulfilled and she is left with nothing and being lied to. Is that what honorable leaders would do to a person serving under their leadership. When I was in business my employees got pay raises first. I was last. God blessed me financially beyond belief.

    Don't forget how much the SBC has sued itself.

    Just read http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/

    I truly believe that the SBC is getting humbled and possibly humiliated if it will not do what is right.

    SWBTS is telling peole to believe God and have faith. How much faith did Patterson have in firing her. I guess he had enough faith to ask for an addition but not to rigthtly compensate her. What he did was a much lower standard than what a public university would do run by non-Christians. How does what Patterson did serve as an illustration of how Christians care for one another?

    Just because someone slips in judgment or theology does that mean they are to shirk their reponsibility.
     
    #51 gb93433, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2007
  12. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    So is this thread about her dismissal or about the $150,000 ? Because in the op it is about the dismissal of a professor.
     
  13. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    The mistake was made in hiring her in the first place. Dr. Patterson hasnt changed anything but i only enforcing what was in place before she got there. The one who hired her is in error. When Dr. Klouda accepted interviews with newspapers in Dallas she assited in escalating this. when she filed suit she assisted in escalating this.

    Whether we like to admit it or not here is how the sides are split. Conservative v. Liberal. It is the sme battle that has gone on for years. This is just one more subject between the two.

    Dr. Pattersons library is not germain to this topic. But when some people get upset over percieved wrongs there is a tendency to "stack" up as many things against the perceived offender as possible to gain more sympathy for the perceived offense. Let keep this about what it really is and not about frivolous hatred.

    The bible is clear on this. Women are not to teach, or usurp authority over a man. That is across the board. Scripture doesnt define it as in a church setting only.
     
  14. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Yeah, that's it she spent years in study so she could one day be fired and sue the pants off them... [Edited out veiled cursing. Moderator warning, the use of acronyms for foul language and veiled cursing is prohibited by BB Posting Rules 2, 3, and the BB User Agreement. I strongly suggest that you re-read the rules and the user agreement.]! Terriably insensitive comment without any regard to her real situation at Southwestern.

    She was lied to by Pope Paige and had to take a lower paying job without tenure track. This is on top of having to care for husband who is not well.

    Now that I think about it she is money hungry, money hungry to have a roof over her head and food on the table. How dare she, doesn't she now she is just a stupid girl who should be in the kitchen popping out babies!
     
    #54 go2church, Mar 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2007
  15. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Why are folks so quick to point out the don't sue another Christian scripture and forget the whole don't lie to anyone scripture.
     
  16. Jack Matthews

    Jack Matthews New Member

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    I see nothing in scripture that would have prohibited Dr. Klouda from teaching men in the seminary. The only restriction that is put on a woman in terms of teaching is in the assembly itself, and as an elder. This is neither.

    As to her suing the school, if you read the accounts of what has transpired, she has followed the Matthew 18 principles for resolving the difficulty to no avail, which allows her to consider those she is suing as a "pagan or tax collector." Lawsuits are only restricted between believers and even that passage of scripture has a context. In this case, because her adversaries refused the arbitration of Christians in the church, the courts are an allowable recourse.

    And for those literalists who like to have things both ways when it benefits them, and turn it around when it doesn't, I might point out that there is no restriction on females filing lawsuits. Look at that passage carefully, literalists. It says "lawsuits among brothers." There's no general neutral language there, for you to go "liberal" in your interpretation. In Paul's day, women were property and couldn't file lawsuits. So for ultra-conservative literalists, there is no other way to see this passage, and women are free from the restrictions placed on men with regard to lawsuits.
     
  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The "one" is most of the chameleons (trustees) who are still there who were also there when she was hired. Do you really trust such wavering trustees? They are excactly what James speaks about in being double-minded. Every one of them should be fired for being so unstable if what you say is true. According to the quotes in the news Patterson lied about what he told her. Was that in place before she came to SWBTS too?

    You are right to a point. Women were also considered chattle too. During the OT in Judaism the men taught the students from 10 years old and up. So what the advocate (W. A. Criswell) did with believeing the Bible was to ignore that practice by letting his wife teach a Sunday School fileld with men and women larger than most SBC churches. One must also remember that the woemn were not educated except by what the women taught them. Would you advocate that too? That is across the board as well.

    According to your view then every woman teacher and professor especially those who are teaching students 10 and above in this world should be fired because she is or will be will be teaching future pastors.

    The women professors in the music school teach future pastors. The women professors in the religious education school teach future or current pastors.

    It is well known that people remember more theology from music than from sermons. So who's teaching theology?
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Very excellent point.

    Anyway some of the best professors SWBTS had were women. When I had Dr. Karen Bullock for church history she taught me what a real godly woman looked like. No doubt that she taught the women in class what a godly woman looked like. every man and every woman should have the privilege os seeing that kind of godly example in action.

    I grew up in a non-Christian home and did not see a godly woman in action. Dr. Bullock showed me what a godly joyful woman looked like. I knew I wanted to be part of making my wife that kind of woman.
     
  19. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Since she was given two years notice, no hardship has been created. She has not been wronged and the court sustem has a different value system to which she is applying to. Scripture discriminates in way the secular courts would not approve of. So now she is asking the courts to hold the school up to secular standards and not biblical ones. That is hypocracy.
     
  20. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    whered does scriture give the right to take church business before secular courts?
     
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