Shocking statistics

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by SRBooe, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. SRBooe

    SRBooe
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    I am currently reading a book by Grant Jeffrey about the truth of the Bible called The Signature of God. I've just started it, and already I am finding information that is shocking and depressing.

    According to this book, a survey was taken among 10,000 Protestant ministers. The results among these "men of God" indicated that:

    1. More than half of them do not totally agree that Jesus was born of a virgin.

    2. More than 80% did not totally agree that Jesus was the Son of God.

    and

    3. More than 80% would not totally agree that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

    (their answers were rather "partially agree" or "mostly agree.")

    How did our ministers get like this? If these men are not total believers, why are they ministers? What happens to the people that these ministers are attempting to teach?

    Do any of you know of people claiming to be Christian ministers like those in this survery?
     
  2. freeatlast

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    Can you give any information as to how he came by these stats? In other words are these stats verifiable?
     
  3. matt wade

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    No surprise when they poll Protestant ministers. Go poll some Baptist Preachers and the response will be a lot different. Of course there are some liberals that call themselves Baptist as well, but those liberals would also call themselves Protestant so they can stay in the first grouping with the other apostates.
     
  4. freeatlast

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    OH the pride of loving the denomination above truth. :tear: It is always the other guy.
     
  5. matt wade

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    No, it's that the denomination stands for truth. The "other guy" in this situation is proclaiming heresey. Will you defend that "other guy"?
     
  6. annsni

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    I agree that many "denominations" have gone off the rails. My ILs old church was a Methodist church and they didn't believe the Bible to be true, that most of the miracles really happened (but instead had natural explanations to them) and things like that. Of course they picked and choose what they DID want to believe - "peace and love and all that good stuff".

    I'd instead like to see what "evangelical pastors" would believe. I'm sure you wouldn't get 100% unfortunately (and in that case, I'd say that they were not really evangelical pastors) but it would be much better numbers.
     
  7. Jim1999

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    In the early days of modernism, baptists were not excused. In fact, some led the way. Harry Emerson Fosdick denied the trinity in the 1930's. McMaster University, one of two baptist universities, in Canada, was totally liberal. That was in 1925. The discovery caused a dramatic split among baptists and brought about the rise of a sound seminary and a whole lot of independent baptist churches. A lot of this began with the Revised Standard Version of the Bible and led to the total use of the KJV. Perhaps with this you will understand why the KJV was and is the main Bible among many evangelicals.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Says who? so your the Elect now?
     
  9. preachinjesus

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    I'd challenge Jeffrey on this survey. Unless he gives precise documentation I'd be curious how reflective it is considering the current state of the church. Maybe if he only surveyed mainline Protestant ministers.

    I doubt these stats carry through into evangelical churches.

    Also, I'm deeply skeptical of his Bible code propaganda. It is a dangerous path to follow.
     
  10. glfredrick

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    The survey may seem shocking to many on this board only because they do not get out much...

    Most of the mainline Protestant churches no longer hold to anything like the fundamentals of the faith, and haven't since before 1900. That, in part, is why they are dying on the vine (check the stats on adherents.com). In a way, the mainline Protestant churches look down at the rest of us "common folk" who in our quaintness still hold the Bible to be literally true.

    My roots stem from Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Lutheran and United Methodist churches. In all of the cases I know (and I've gone back for family functions and asked questions of various "ministers" in those churches) what we tend to hold as normative in Baptist circles is no longer held as true in most of those churches. There is also a liberal wing of the Presbyterian church who has gone liberal enough to deny the Trinity. We have one of their seminaries almost across the street from SBTS, and it is interesting when some of their students come over and share classes (we are all part of the "Metroversity" program between the seminaries and local universities). The most conservative of the Presbyterians, who wish to take a course or two at Southern find themselves flaming liberals compared to the most liberal of Baptists in those classes. They are not even close to the run-of-the-mill students, who still hold to the fundamentals of the faith.
     
  11. Zenas

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    GLF, I get out enough to recognize what you're saying is true. The mainlines' view of scripture and Christianity does not even resemble what we consider normal. I also know you're right about the seminary across the street. However, I think the transition to absolutely anything goes liberalism is somewhat shorter. I would put 1950 as the more likely turning point.
     
  12. SRBooe

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    I have since done a little looking around the net for information about this reported poll. I was surprised to find out that this referenced poll was taken in the 1960s.

    Here are a few more things I found:

    http://christiankonnections.com/assets/applets/How_Do_You_Know_The_Bible_Is_True.pdf
    In the 1960s, University of Virginia professor and sociologist Jeffrey Hadden conducted a survey of 10,000 US. pastors – to which 7,441 replied.

    Asked whether they believed that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were the "inspired and inerrant Word of God in faith, history and secular matters," mainline ministers responded "NO" in overwhelming numbers:

    Episcopalians, 95 percent
    Methodists, 87 percent
    Presbyterians, 82 percent

    Remember, those are "NO" responses.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b7.htm

    http://www.lesandhelga.com/sermons/2001/071501.html

    We have found three polls of Christian ministers, pastors, and priests. For some reason, data is more easily obtained from the UK than from the U.S.:

    This website seems to show the same referenced poll with the year of 1998: A poll of 7,441 Protestant clergy in the U.S. showed a wide variation in belief. The following ministers did not believe in the virgin birth:

    American Lutherans 19%
    American Baptists 34%
    Episcopalians 44%
    Presbyterians 49%
    Methodists 60%

    1999: A poll of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican priests, and Protestant ministers/pastors in the UK found that about 25% did not believe in the virgin birth. Yet, 97% of the same group do not believe the world was created in six days, and 80% do not believe in the literal existence of Adam and Eve.

    2002: Another poll of 140 Church of England (Anglican) clergy found that 27% do not believe in the virgin birth. The pollsters reported:

    "...one Hampshire vicar was typical: 'There was nothing special about his birth or his childhood - it was his adult life that was extraordinary....I have a very traditional bishop and this is one of those topics I do not go public on. I need to keep the job I have got.' John Roberts, spokesperson for the Lord's Day Observance Society, said: 'If you take away the virgin birth you might as well take away the entire Christian message. The miracle of the Christian faith is that God came down to us. If you lose that miracle you lose the resurrection and everything else'."

    2004: A poll of ministers of the Church of Scotland found that 37% do not believe in the virgin birth. Many believe that the virgin birth should be interpreted metaphorically rather than as a description of an actual event."

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/resurrec8.htm

    Barna Research poll of "Christain Leaders" in the year 2000
    Jesus was crucified but NOT physically resurrected. Church leaders 33% Lay Church Leaders 33%

    I would say that any "church leader" that does not believe that Jesus was not physically resurrected cannot be a Christian.
     
    #12 SRBooe, Nov 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2010
  13. pinoybaptist

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    I wouldn't say that.

    A Christian is somebody who belongs to Christ because Christ bought him and redeemed him with His blood, the basis of which is grace and mercy, not the redeemed's head knowledge, denomination, theology, soteriology, or assent to any doctrine.

    Now, I wouldn't fellowship with them because there will be no agreement we can reach.

    However, I wouldn't go to calling them not Christians, which is to say hellbound, unredeemed, unsaved, etc.,
     
  14. annsni

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    Is not Christ's resurrection an essential?
     
  15. jaigner

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    Um...Baptists are Protestants, whether they like it or not. And many Protestants are evangelical. Many mainline Protestants are liberal, but there are evangelicals among them, as well.

    This poll really should explore evangelicals. It's really not shocking at all to see these numbers, since this type of thinking has been pervasive in mainline circles for around 100 years.
     
  16. jaigner

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    It really is an essential for one to call themselves Christian.

    But I can't quite bring myself to be the judge in these cases. Christ's blood can cover doctrinal error. Only the Spirit can probe the deepest parts of the heart.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    yes, it is an essential doctrine in as far as true and correct doctrines go in this time world.
    but essential doctrines are not pre-requisites to Christ shedding His blood for His people whom He knew from the foundation of the world.
    also, if essential doctrines are a requirement to one's eternal standing then no one was redeemed until the doctrines were made known.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    Christ's blood did cover doctrinal errors, and you're right, the Spirit knows those who are His.
     
  19. SRBooe

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    I am shocked again.

    It is not a doctrinal error. It is a belief error. Jesus' blood does not cover unbelief. He said that we have to believe.

    I had never suspected that we can dissect the story of Christ like this. Can anyone really have a reason to accept part of the story and deny the rest? First, to not believe that Christ rose from the dead, we would have to say that the bible is in error. If the bible is in error there, then how do we know which part is true?

    If we don't believe the bible is true, (as proved by our denial of the resurrection of Jesus) then there is no reason to suspect that Jesus ever lived, that he was the Son of God, or that he died for our sins.

    If we don't know that, we are not Christians.
     
  20. jaigner

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    No. But this isn't necessarily not believing the Bible is true. It's being wrong about the Bible. Basically I'm with you about this, except it's not for me to judge the far reaches of people's hearts to see what I find there. This is a fallen world in which sometimes obvious is ignored and improbable is believed. Unbelief is part of the curse.

    Sometimes it isn't all cut and dry, black and white. That's where trust comes in. I trust that the Spirit will deal with humans as is promised.
     

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