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should christian women be allowed to wear thong bathing suites at beaches that p

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by hubbml27, Aug 18, 2002.

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  1. yes they could, at beaches that permit it.

    100.0%
  2. no they should not.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Margie Kritzer

    Margie Kritzer <img src =/Margie.gif>

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    I don't mean to take a side on this debate, but I am reacting to it as an independent woman of 37 years of age. In saying that, I'm recognizing that women ages 18 to 80 may respond here, and that I represent a small few at best.

    Abiyah makes a good case for a Godly, respectful marriage between two human beings, in my humble opinion. A husband who sets limits is respecting that his spouse will make the best choice. Limits only work with a consequence, and what woman would want to change the nature of an otherwise nurturing marriage by insisting on wearing a thong? A win-win, it looks like to me...

    Part of the problem with the original question has to do with the way it was asked…"Should a Christian woman BE ALLOWED to wear thong bathing suits at the beach...?" Allowed by whom? A church? Her husband? Her own convictions? It is as hard a question to answer as it is to ask.

    It may be less controversial to ask, “Are thongs bathing suits appropriate beach attire for Christian women?”

    Reactions on this thread vary from mild tolerance to outright outrage. I would never tell another adult woman that it is NOT her choice. However, each woman should consider the desires of her own husband and family as well as her own, as they have to live with the consequences, too.

    (message edited for poor sentence structure)

    [ August 31, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Margie Kritzer ]
     
  2. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry if I cast a negative shadow on your opinion of me, but because I love my wife like I do, I have to also protect her. I do not have to exert my authority on her because she has responded to the love that I have shown her these past 20 years. Any man that truly tries to love his wife like Christ loved the church will be met with a sweet, submissive spirit from his wife.

    My duty is to love my wife. If I could get her on here (she doesn't like computers; she won't even get an email address) I'm sure she would tell you she feels overwhelmingly loved and secure.

    I don't want to be like Lot and let my wife go to the world. I have a God-given responsiblity to love her, cherish her, protect her, and lead her.

    As I stated before, anytime there has been a breakdown in our relationship, it has always been a result of my lack of love and attention to her.

    We Pastors have a bad habit of putting the ministry ahead of our family. I've asked God to help me put it all into the proper perspective. I've given my wife complete liberty to warn me when my priorities get misplaced.

    I have the godliest, sweetest, prettiest, most loving wife that a man could ever ask for. Praise the Lord!
     
  3. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Ideally, yes. But in reality I'm sure there are husband out there who have done their very best to be loving and they didn't find their wife responding with a 'sweet submissive spirit'. Was it their fault? Surely not in all cases. Surely he cannot ultimately be held responsible for their wife's behavior. Surely she is more responsible for it than he is? Since she is an adult accountable to God?

    Also, the "I do not have to because she's responded thus and so until now" bothers me since in an earlier post you said you would use force if necessary.

    So putting these together I get "when she responds in ways that please me I do not use physical restraint; but if she didn't, I would use force to prevent her doing what she was choosing to do".

    Am I distorting what you said here? If so feel free to clarify.

    And just to add - I'm glad you have a wonderful wife - it seems that in your case this is rather hypothetical - thankfully for both of you! Still, though, it's the Biblical principles that I'm interested in - how you'd apply what you understand to be Biblical, if 'the worst' should happen.

    AITB [​IMG]
     
  4. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    In 20 years I have not had to "physically restrain" my wife for anything. Lord willing, I will never have to. When I say "physically restrain" I am not implying tying her to the refrigerator or anything like that. I would simply do what was necessary to keep her from ruining her testimony and possibly our marriage. Thank God this situation is very hypothetical. My wife has not wore a pair of pants since she was fourteen. That was long before I met her. I feel I can be safe to say she would not entertain thoughts of a thong bikini. Outside of our bedroom anyway. ;)

    I want to make it clear that I do not advocate violence toward women in any form or fashion. Keeping your wife at home when she is about to make a decision she would soon regret is not violence IMO. It is protection.
     
  5. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Pastor Bob --

    I do not want to believe that you would actually
    physicaly restrain any adult woman whom you
    love. I cannot. An adult physicaly restraining a
    person with whom s/he is in a relationship is
    abuse. I do NOT want to believe that when it
    comes down to it, you would do this.

    I was married before, and in that marriage, I
    was an ignorant, manipulative person and had
    no idea that I was a bad wife. This was because
    my mother, who was my abuser, taught me
    everything I knew. She also took away and
    trampled all my rights to both opinions and
    emotions.

    The result was that, besides other frustrations
    I gave my first husband, I also could not ex-
    press any opinions or show anger if he upset
    me. It was not that he would not allow it but
    because I did not know how and I could not
    be taught.

    One day, he perceived that I was angry, but
    when he asked me about it, I would respond,
    "I'm not mad!" He knew I was, but I did not
    know I was. He became so frustrated that
    he backed me up against a wall, facing him,
    and held my arms against the wall at about
    my ears' height. He told me that he was not
    going to let me go until I admitted I was angry
    and told him why.

    We stood there until he got too tired to hold me
    there any longer, and I didn't even know that I
    could have struggled against him. I also never
    was able to either speak the words that I was
    angry or tell him why. Frustrated, he left and
    drove off. I was so unemotional that I could not
    even cry, even though I was ashamed and
    totally dehumanized.

    Bob, this is the only bad "mark" on his record
    with me: the fact that he physically restrained
    me, a grown woman. It does not matter that his
    reasons were both righteous and upright; his
    method was all wrong, abusive, and humiliating.

    Bob, you would not do this. You just do not
    know it because you and your wife have not
    had any major differences, especially of the
    sort that would cross such harsh lines.

    No, Bob. You would not do this.

    [ August 31, 2002, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  6. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    I'm sorry but I just can't accept that it's appropriate to prevent another adult from leaving a building by force, except when you have clear evidence they will hurt themselves or others without restraint i.e. in a crisis/emergency situation. The way someone is dressed is not a crisis/emergency :(

    It surely is not legal to do that, as someone else said, I think. Your role as husband surely doesn't give you the right to break the law, does it?

    I know about behavior that is dehumanizing in another context - I've been in a psychiatric unit. You have NO IDEA what it is like to have someone deprive you of basic human rights until it's happened to you. I think Abiyah is right that you don't know what you are saying, really. And truly, I'm glad this is totally hypothetical for you; yet, think of the example you set for other husbands with your words. You could be encouraging another husband to forcibly restrain his wife, in a strained marriage relationship :( . I hope not, but you never know who is reading this and what they might be encouraged to do, by it.

    AITB
     
  7. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Using your body to do it is simple battery and false arrest - not to mention profoundly arrogant.

    Joshua
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Abiyah,

    Thank you for sharing that personal testimony with us. You are probably right. I may not react the way I stated earlier when faced with an actual occurance. I am not a angry man, in fact, my sixteen and eight-year-old daughters think I'm an old "softee."

    The Lord has blessed me with such a good wife. She has been such a sweet, submissive wife that I have grown to love her more than I ever thought possible. The kids have (so far) followed their mother's sweet, submissive attitude. And I, following Ephesians 5:21, also submit myself to them.

    As I stated in an earlier post, when we make our wives the Queen, that automatically makes us the King. Not dictator, not slave-driver, but the head like God ordained.

    I pray that God spares me from having to find out how I would react to such a terrible situation.

    God Bless You Abiyah,

    Pastor Bob
     
  9. Maverick

    Maverick Member

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    As far as secular law is concerned we have to go back to Acts and if I am the head of the household as the Bible teaches then we may have a conflict between man's law and God's and in that case "we ought to obey God rather than men." Since I am held accountable for my house then I ought to have some authority. Besides, godly women will not only be modest in their apparel, but they will fulfill their role as given in Eph 5 and none of this would happen making the whole argument hypothetical and moot.

    Ok, let's get back on track with the issue of modesty.

    I am trying to find my copy of the a list of ten things that are common to all revivals (at least in America). Besides the leadership getting right and repentance on the part of individuals and such there is a change in how believers dress. Seems like dress becomes an issue as part of falling away from our first love and when that is revived we get it together again. So, God must care about our dress if this is one of the top ten issues addressed or redressed in every revival.

    I also picked up a book today called, What Shall The Redeemed Wear" by Simon Schrock and he quotes a few folks that are not Baptist, but noteworthy.

    John Wesley - "The putting on of costly apparel is exactly opposite of what the apostle terms the hidden man of the heart." (Not speaking to modesty, but still a concept that clothing is important and $150 sneakers may not be the right thing to buy.)

    Charles Finney - "It is your duty to dress so plainly as to show the world that you place no reliance of on the things of fashion, and set no value at all on them, but depsise and reject them altogether." (Plain would at least cover your nakedness.)

    "Evangelists such as D. L. Moody were quite vocal in their denunciation [of the fads of their time.] ... in the early 20th Century Billy Sunday and many other less influential pulpiteers thundered against the "jazz age" fashions of the flappers."

    Ira D. Williams - "Let your dress be a rebuke to fashion and extravagance and a model worthy of imitation." (Today's fashion is SEX. Do you think thatthe worldly designers want you modest? Hardly, they want to show your booty and sell clothes to do it.)

    "J.C. Wenger in his booklet published in 1944. Christianity and Dress, made the point that the Anabaptist reformation included "condemnation of conformity to the world in attire."

    Now the quote that affirms the reason that dress is one of the common factors in a revival is this.

    "Nowadays when a plea is made for Biblical standards of dress in our fundamental churches, schools, camps, or homes, many Christians dismiss the appeal as the peevish tirades of an old crank or fuddy-duddy. Attempts to establish or enforce a biblical standard of dress are often censored or pitied as nothing more than some misguided 'legalism.' Even more devasting is when this attitude is found in good, dedicated, gifted, and influential preachers and ay leaders. And the fact that many in our fundamental circles are less than convinced that it matters how a Christian dresses. This growing segment of Fundamentalism is apparently ignorant or unconcrned (or both) about the implications of ignoring God's Word in the matter of ress. But before we dismiss the subject as 'much ado about nothing.' we shuld consider the thoughts of a few secular writers on the importance of how we dress. History seems to indicate that as a nation degenerates, so also, do the clearly defined distinctions and standards of dress. This is
    especially so in the area of gender identity. fashion expert, Lawrence Langer, once admonished his readers that: 'The history of civilization has had many examplesof nations which became effeminate and were destroyed by more virile. bt ess civilized races which conquered and overran them. In all such effeminacy, clothing played a leading role. Tus the wisdom of the ages, which is based on realities of which most of us do not actually become aware in the short experiences of our life span." Clothing the Universal Language - William Nicholson

    Shoot, no effeminism in this country. For that to happen first you have to emasculate the male by the masculation of women. They started wearing men's clothes and bobbed their hair throwing off what Mary garden said in 1929 as the last symbol of dominance. Long hair on women shows the submission of a woman to God and her husband. The first was pants since they became a symbol of his authority (Who wears the pants in your family?)

    Men started shaving and having an effeminate face and then went to earrings, necklaces, pastels and cologne that is sometimes very hard to distinguish from a female scent. Homosexuals are fashion designers for both genders so of course they will design clothes in accordance with biblical standards of gender distinction. Indeed, their designs will help more come out of the closet since even straight men are now wearing pink and effeminate jewelry.

    Nope, no problems in America. We are fine though a less civilized though overly virile group has launched attacks against us, but we have nothing to fear for God is on our side. Or is He since many want to make Him a Her and our versions turn Christ from the Son of God into a genderless child and even some Presby churches are having services that are getting quite close to praying to Our Heavenly Mother. Nope, no problems in the good old USA.
     
  10. Maverick

    Maverick Member

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    I forgot to mention I Cor 11 and the reversal there, but that is another poll.
     
  11. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    8o) And may our God bless you, Pastor Bob.
    I believe that as we rely upon Him, He gives
    us the necessary grace for every situation.
     
  12. jerryMschneider

    jerryMschneider New Member

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    1Tim2: Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
    9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
    10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

    There you have it, the word of God!It is remarkable that anyone would suggest this issue at all!
     
  13. Maverick

    Maverick Member

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    Jerry, no one knows what modest is anymore so it is bound to be a topic.
     
  14. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Or, more accurately, "modest" is a cultural distinction not a universal norm.

    Joshua
     
  15. Maverick

    Maverick Member

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    Of course, we live in a society where folks want to know what is is so what can you expect from Leftists.

    Female modesty somewhat according to this discussion. No nipples or pubic hair, but the bottom, sides and tops of the bosom can be hanging out and butts are born to be free. Clothes can be sprayed on as it is only showing bare flesh that makes it immodest though one can see everything perfectly as if the woman was naked. Tight wrapping now is acceptable versus draping. No concern that a man that would lust after a woman now has far less to imagine than he once did and will carry her form home with him for private pleasure. No problem or no responsibility on the woman anymore.

    It was once a shame to show your butt. If you were being foolish you were said to be showing your butt now it is OK. David's men were shamed by one cheek being exposed, but we let them both sway freely.
     
  16. Maverick

    Maverick Member

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    I came across this and think it is appropriate here and in some other discussions. It is a short article on Calvin and law and grace, but

    "For Calvin the gospel means the end of thecurse and slavery of the law, but he does not oppose the gospel tot he law. After being redeemed by the gospel of God's grace, the elect must - or rather, may - walk again inthe way of God's commandments. And in this connection Calvin assigns an important task to pastoral care. It should not impose undue burdens in the form of commandments and restrictions. Its task is rather to teach believers to discern the will of God for their own personal lives. Calvin was continually consulted on countless special questions, even on fashions and the manner of dress. His advice was on a high level; it was evangelical, and yet very clear and definite."

    G. Brillenbury Wurth, Christian Counseling In The Light of Modern Psychology, (Philadelphia: The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1962), p 29

    I am not a TULIP, but it is interesting that dress has been a church issue since Corinthians. However, when even the pastors don't have a clue as to what is modest or worldy where will folks get counseling and how can the pastors help people discern when they cannot discern themselves. He gave clear and definite counseling. No undue burdens, but he seemed to know what was right and wrong. We could use a few more of that kind of pastor.
     
  17. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Last week's sermon at my church:

    The Curse on Canaan And the Problem of Racism

    had something in about modesty.

    In fact, the part about modesty was actually a quote from the end of this sermon (it was appropriately attributed):

    <a href="http://www.bible.org/docs/ot/books/gen/deffin/gen-11.htm#TopOfPage" target="_blank">The Nakedness of Noah
    and the Cursing of Canaan</a>

    AITB
     
  18. jerryMschneider

    jerryMschneider New Member

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    I expect that this will be an ineffective "defence" when one come before the Lord to judge his works at the end of this mortal life. :cool:
     
  19. stubbornboy

    stubbornboy New Member

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    that thing should be talked in the private of your own home
     
  20. Gwyneth

    Gwyneth <img src=/gwyneth.gif>

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    I am disgusted beyond comprehension!!!!
    SO AM I :(
     
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