Should health care insurance be a right?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is 2008, not 1808. Shouldn't the first question in a clinic or hospital be "Where does it hurt?", not "How will you be paying?".

    I have historically been against regarding health care insurance as right; however, I am willing to reconsider my postion.

    Let's hear the arguments for and against.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Palatka51

    Palatka51
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,724
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I proclaim a certain thing as a right it must be something that will not impose a burden on another. Universal health care for each citizen is not a right. It will cause everyone to hand over hard earned money by the point of the IRS' gun. Making them a slave to my right.
    Health care is a privilege not a right.
     
  3. carpro

    carpro
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    20,915
    Likes Received:
    295
    I don't believe it's mentioned as a "right" in the constitution, but activists judges have been re-interpreting the constitution for a number of years now.

    Healthcare may be the next bit of judicial legislation. Who can tell?
     
  4. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==If a person goes to the emergency room, with an actual emergency, they will be seen regardless of their payment situation. In fact our local hospital is having to rent itself out to a larger hospital because so many people who visit our local hospital can't or don't pay their bills. Yet they get the same treatment those who pay do when they enter the hospital.

    ==Its not in the constitution, its not in the bill of rights, it is not a right. Healthcare is something you have to pay for and quality healthcare is something you have to earn. Don't like it? Move to China or Cuba and see how you like their systems of healthcare. Our doctors are the best in the world and, to be honest, to get the best you are going to have to pay for the best.

    O, and Palatka51 is 100% correct.
     
    #4 Martin, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2008
  5. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,456
    Likes Received:
    93
    Why were you against it, and how is the situation different now?
     
  6. JustChristian

    JustChristian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0
    Over 50M Americans don't have health insurance. According to the C.I.A. Factbook, the U.S. is 45th in the world in terms of life expectancy. I used to believe we had a great medical delivery system and that we would surely be in the top 10. That was then. This is now. Do any of you have close relatives who had to undergo a serious operation or long term illness without insurance? Well, I do. I've also had a lifelong friend die without insurance. Some here have made the point that you'll still get medical care if you don't have insurance. Have any of you who say that ever had a close relationship with someone who had to go through that? I doubt it. But if you think that anyone can get along fine without medical insurance why don't you give yours up. You're wasting your money. Right? Not exactly.
     
  7. carpro

    carpro
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    20,915
    Likes Received:
    295
    If true, a far more likely reason is that too many Americans are dying of complications from being obese, not lack of medical care.

    We do love our fast food and high cholesterol.
     
  8. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    The one who pays the piper names the tune. If the govt has the obligation to provide universal health services then the govt has an obligation limit its exposure. A health tax on pork and beef, candy . . . . Fat people should pay an excise tax.

    Would the govt be required to keep people alive as long as technically possible or would the limits of "quality life" be legislated and would "turn off" people who the law "said" didn't have quality life? Should the govt pay SS to people who didn't have a quality life? What about senile people and winos?

    The "Biblical" official post flood age limit is three score and ten. Should all govt aid and services be cut off at the 70th year?
     
  9. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    >Over 50M Americans don't have health insurance.

    Why not? Are they the same half of all Americans who carry an average $8000 balance on credit cards? Are they the Americans who are "upside down" on their old car when they finance a new car? If they were free and clear and were not buying more house than they can afford could they afford health insurance?

    Should the rest of the tax payers bail them out? If We should pay their health insurance, should we not also pay their car insurance and their house payment?
     
  10. Dagwood

    Dagwood
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is not entirely true. If you go to the hospital with a life-threating injury, you will be treated. However, if you go the the hospital in pain and it is found that the condition is not life-threatening you will not be treated.

    For instance, if you go to the hospital with pain in your chest, they will take an X-ray. If the X-ray shows possible cancer, you will be referred to a doctor and given a follow-up appointment. If you are unable to pay this private doctor, you will not be seen. You will be referred to the Hospital district and it can take months to get the treatment you need, if you are still alive.

    So, treatment for the rich and the poor is quite different indeed.

    I think health care is a privilege which, in today's world especially in the United States of America, should be treated as a right.
     
  11. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's Deal With Some Facts


    ==That is a nice, neat little number that means nothing.

    Of those 50 million people who don't have health insurance how many of them have made the choice not to buy insurance? My brother is like that. He is healthy and he does not believe he needs it, so he refuses to buy it. He is among those 50 million but he is not poor (he makes more than I do). How many of those 50 million could afford it if they had proper priorities? How many of those people use plans that are not insurance (group plans, etc)? And how many of them honestly, doing their best, can't afford or get insurance?

    So the number you placed on the table is meaningless. It is one of those numbers that can be, and often is, misused.

    Second. It is not the role of the federal government to force people to get health insurance nor is it the role of the federal government to purchase insurance for people. That is not my opinion, that is a constitutional fact. If people want high taxes and if people want everyone to pay for everyone's healthcare then said people should move to Cuba or China.



    ==Again, another meaningless fact. You assume that our life expectancy rate is directly connected to rates of health insurance. However you have overlooked some major factors. Let's review some of these things that play a role in the life expectancy of the average American:

    1. Fast food. When you ride by a KFC, Taco Bell, McDonalds, or any other fast food chain, what do you see? Cars in the parking lot, cars at the drive through, and people shoving that nasty food into their mouths. This leads to obesity, which leads to heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, and even cancer. This reduces people's life expectancy.

    2. General diet. What do people eat when they are snacking or cooking at home/work? Junk food. Cookies, candy, hamburger helper, steaks, and other foods like that. All of those things lead to the same health problems as seen in number one and reduces people's life expectancy.

    3. Smoking/Drinking. Smoking causes COPD, cancer, emphysema, black lung disease, heart disease, and other health problems that lower life expectancy. Drinking causes liver problems, car accidents, and other such problems.

    4. Self doctoring. People get themselves into all kinds of trouble by playing doctor. This includes, but is not limited to, using excessive amounts of over the counter drugs.

    5. Laziness. America is, by far, one of the most lazy overweight countries in the history of the world. We sit all day at work, we sit when we get home, and we have very poor diets.

    Do I really need to continue? I can.

    The point is that insurance is not the main issue when it comes to life expectancy.


    ==I went without insurance for years and I have asthma that usually sends me to the ER at least once per year (on good years). I know the costs, but I also know that good medical care is worth the cost. I am far, far from rich (I am a state employee). However I paid my bills even if I had to set up payment plans. I have insurance now. This past year I had two surgeries on my sinuses. Insurance covered a lot of the bill both times, but I still got stuck with plenty of bills. Since I desire good healthcare I have to sacrifice to pay those bills. If we want quality healthcare we must be willing to pay for it. I am truly sorry for those who honestly can't afford insurance. But quality costs.

    ==As stated above, I have. Again, you get what you pay for.

    Stop assuming that just because someone believes in the constitutional boundries of government that they have not faced hard times. The role of government is not healthcare. It would be constitutionally and morally wrong for the government to steal money from hard working individuals and give it to those who refuse to work. Such people should be given no help. As for those who work hard and still need help, they should get it. But all of their help should not come from the government. Americans have got to stop looking to big papa government to solve their problems. New Orleans, during Hurricane Katrina, was a perfect example of what happens when people become overly dependent upon the government. They stand there doing nothing waiting on government and when government is slow to respond, as it usually is, they get angry. However it was their responsibility to take care of themselves and their families. Not the government's. The same is true with this issue. We should take care of ourselves and our families (etc) and not look to government to solve our problems. Why? Because it can't.
     
    #11 Martin, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2008
  12. JustChristian

    JustChristian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0

    Do you have any facts to support thaty? I do.
     
  13. JustChristian

    JustChristian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're arguing from one person's decision to apply to the whole country. My brother changed careers at mid-life from Corporate Financial Analyist to Baptist minister. He pastored a church in a poor part of Louisville. They paid him almost nothing and didn't provide insurance. He had to have a serious operation without insurance. (heart not sinuses) I had been hounding him for years to buy insurance even though he couldn't afford it. He didn't do this by choice. (He has a MS in Econ, an MBA, and a MDIV so he's not one of those lazy people you don't care about.)

    One of my best friends died last Christmas without insurance. He has a BA and had worked hard all his life. It wasn't pretty. It's interesting to see that you also don't care about victims of disasters. I do. Jesus cared about people who had problems too.
     
  14. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==That is not entirely true. The local hospital here sees everyone who walks through the doors. From colds to heart attacks. Everyone is seen and everyone is treated. How do I know? 1. I have friends who work there. 2. Large amounts of people using the hospital who can't or won't pay their bills is why the hospital is running in the red is having to rent itself out to a larger company just to stay afloat. They threatened to shut it down if a renter could not be found. Of course this is not true for private hospitals such as Duke.

    ==Again, that depends upon where you are. My ear, nose, and throat doctors is one of the best in southeastern NC. However he sees people who are on all sorts of public assistance, he sees prisoners from the local jail, he sees the richest people in the area, and those in the middle. And it does not take months to get an appointment. I am sure people who live in large cities have problems in this area. However I am also sure that there are doctors who will see them. They may have search for those doctors, but there are doctors who will see them.

    Quality healthcare costs money on both ends. Therefore to get quality healthcare you are going to have to pay for it. It is not the job of the United States government to pay for people's insurance.
     
  15. JustChristian

    JustChristian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why do you pay for insurance if you could see the same doctor for free?
     
  16. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Did you read my reply or did you just scan it?

    It is NOT one person driving all of those cars at McDonalds everyday.

    It is NOT one person eating at Burger King everyday.

    It is NOT one person eating junk food everyday.

    It is NOT one person not taking care of themselves.

    It is NOT one person smoking.

    It is NOT one person refusing to purchase insurance because they think they don't need it.

    It is NOT one person who can't afford insurance because they waste their money.

    In other words, the problem is NOT just one person.

    Your reply above misses the whole point.


    ==If you think sinus surgery is not serious you have clearly not had sinus surgery. I am not sure about the exact costs, but one heart surgery and two one hour (plus) sinus surgeries probably cost about the same amount of money.


    ==Don't care about? So you honestly believe that the government should take money from people to pay for free healthcare/education (etc) for people who refuse to work or who waste their money on things they don't need (big screen tvs, etc)? Do you honestly believe that? I hope not. This is about what is right and fair.

    As for your pastor, he certainly found himself in a bad situation no doubt. And again, if you have read my replies you would know that I have no problem with assistance for such people who truly need it. But then again I have a feeling that you scanned my reply quickly and did not carefully read it or my other replies in this thread. Am I right?


    ==Where did I say I did not care? I just said what happened in New Orleans was a perfectly good example of the dangers that come when people think government is their to solve their problems. Think about how many people would still be alive today if they had only taken care of themselves instead of waiting for big papa government to come in and save the day (which it rarely can).

    This is the kind of poor logic that big government liberals have used for years. If you don't believe government is the answer then you don't care. That kind of logic is wrong. It comes from the faulty belief that government is the answer to people's problems. My friend 'caring' is not pushing one's responsibilty onto the government. Those who refuse to help themselves create their own bad situation. And pointing that out is not "uncaring". It is simply the truth. Was Paul showing that he did not care when he said that a person who refuses to work should not eat? 2Thess 3:10, Prov 14:23. Interesting that I should quote proverbs, don't you think? That book has a great deal to say about what happens to the lazy and the wasteful.

    Again there should be help for those who truly need it. There are people who work hard and things just don't work out for them and there are people who fall on hard times. There should be help for them. I have said that in this thread. That help should mainly come from private sources but some of it can come from government. However such help should not be given out freely to everyone and it certainly should not be given out to those who have earned their poor lot through laziness or poor priorities.
     
    #16 Martin, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2008
  17. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because I don't expect the doctor, the government, or others, to give me anything for free. I expect to pay for services that are provided to me. I don't sit around waiting for handouts (mainly from the government). I believe in personal responsibilty and a good work ethic.

    O, and I did not say their visits were free. I am sure someone is paying the bills for them (government, charity, the rest of us, etc).
     
    #17 Martin, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2008
  18. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree in theory but not in application. Freedom is a right yet many are burdened with war to protect that right.

    I agree with Martin in post 4, life threatning emergencies may be a right but we need to have a line somewhere.

    Also, I thought medicaid/medicare was public health care???
     
  19. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    We now spend 17% of our GDP on health care. Other nations, including those with "socialized medicine" spend no more than 10.5% of GDP on health care. And for that extra 6.5% of GDP our population is certainly not appreciably healthier nor do we have the longest average life span.

    Therefore, I think we need to reconsider the health care situation in these United States - how we deliver it and how it is financed. I am just searching for ideas.
     
  20. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    I am a strong supporter of universal health insurance but I do not consider it a human right to have. However, I do consider it something that first world nations should want to have in place for its citizens. The reason being that quality health is a key public health determinant for so many other socioeconomic factors in a population. I believe good health in a population leads to lower poverty, lower crime, lower unemployment, improved productivity, better education etc. Additionally, lower poverty levels in a population also leads to better health, lower crime, better education, etc. While universal health insurance may not be the only way to accomplish quality health in a population, it has historically been one of the most successful ways to do it, of course, not without its own set of problems.
     

Share This Page

Loading...