Should Pastors Know what YOU Give?

rsr said:

I agree with the first part. Disagree with the second. The congregation is the final authority on such things, and members have a right to know.

If the congregation is the final authority, then why should they not be entitled to see the giving records for every congregant as well?

 

Ps104_33 said:

In the early church they did not deal with this issue because they didnt have checkbooks and offering envelopes.

Only 100 years ago they didn't deal with this issue either, because the primary means of raising church funds wasn't an offering plate, but pew rental.

[ January 13, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

Dr.Bob,

You have asked some good questions:"IF the Pastor has "no right" to want to know about the spiritual condition of his flock in the area of giving, what DOES he have the right to know?

Morality?
Child raising?
Marriage/Divorce?
Faithfulness?"

1. Does a pastor have the right, i.e. the God given authority and privilege, to know everything about the areas you have mentioned? Is there nothing in these areas that those in our congregations may expect to keep as a private matter between themselves and God? Surely you do not think that their cannot be matters a person may rightfully expect to keep private from his pastor about his thought life (Morality),e.g., or his relationship with his children (Child raising), or his relationship with his spouse (Marriage). You have cited Hebrews 13:17 to "obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give an account," but this doesn't say that pastors have the right to expect their people to tell them anything they want to know about their lives.

2. You have not addressed any of the points I raised in my earlier post about this issue. For example, what about Jesus teaching that a believer's giving to the poor should be a private matter between himself and God?

Mat 6:1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.
Mat 6:2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Mat 6:3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Mat 6:4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

I would add that one of Jesus' concerns in giving such advice appears to be that we do not succumb to the sin of pride with respect to our giving. As those who "watch out for [the] souls" of our people and "who must give an account," should we not try our very best not to put a stumbling block in front of them by tempting them in the very area in which Jesus has warned them to avoid temptation by keeping their giving secret?

Pastork

[ January 14, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Pastork ]

 

I'd say without any experince that a pastor need not know the financhal situations of those in his congergation. I tithe and then some and I don't make much cash... cause I don't have a job, not all my money goes to my home church though. I'm involved in several ministries and sometimes I may end up putting a good chunk of the cash I have on hand into something for God, although I still tend to put something in the plate at church although I always make sure to try and not let anyone see what I put in esspecially if it's a larger valued bill... I'm only 18 and jobless so to me 20 bucks is a lot.. and a lota people might be like, oh look at him he put a 20 in.. which would be soo dumb.. although they may also think I"m a cheap sinner because I should have a job and be putting in 40 a week or something

I as someone who wants to be a pastor later on in life would have to say... I like knowing where people are spiritually, and I like encouraging them to do good and encouraging them when they do good. But I think knowing what they put in the plate would be rather discouraging for me, and it's with their own heart and that's their's and God's turff there's no way I could see entering into that feild without tottaly making em mad at me and hurting their spiritual growth in other areas that would eventually lead to a more giving heart.
The only time I would have to say I'd say anything person to person on the subject is when someone obviously has a lot of money and is making it clear that they don't put their 10% in the plate.

 

Why not tell the members of your church that you want to audit their checkbooks on a monthly basis?

<sarcasm on>
I am sure heads of homes and whole households would joyfully submit to a person outside their home who would oversee their spending.
<sarcasm off, maybe>

But you don't just want to see their checkbooks, you would also want to know where their cash went.

And I don't think you just want to know if they give, you want to know if they are giving to YOUR church. The whole "tithe" must be brought into the "storehouse", of course meaning church.

Tanget: Have you ever taught tithing in the context of the entire book of Malachi? The context is fairly important, I would think.

How do you define giving? Does it count if you give to the poor, but don't do it through the church? Can you give to missionaries and give on the sly so the pastor couldn't tell how much you were giving? Bad sheep.

I think the writers of the New Testament, including Jesus, in the Book of Revelation, missed out on a "golden" opportunity to give direction on this issue of "tithing" to church leaders, umm, I mean the church, which is the temple, or church, or whatever.

We definately don't have enough direction in the New Testament on "tithing" to the church leaders, so it behooves the current leaders to enhance the teachings of the New Testament, so that the weekly (or weakly) salary check for the paid employees of the church, pastor and staff, are sufficient for the needs, etc. etc.

More rules, PLEASE!

Shouldn't each member have direct deposit into the treasury of the church, and then the church leader or leaders dole it out to the families as the leaders see fit?

<end of file, [cough, sneeze]>

[ January 14, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: qwerty ]

 

I think that many of us might be apprehensive about the pastor knowing what each individual gives in that likely this information would not be limited to this person.

Think about the number of individuals who could have access to this knowledge -- the deacons who count the offerings, the treasurer, secretaries and other office workers. A careless comment by any of these or an accidental glimpse into church papers by a family member or other members of the congregation might lead to the temptation of gossip about who is giving and how much. Quickly, it could spread among the members of the church, leading to divisions among those who are "good" in giving certain amounts and those that are "bad" Christians for giving less.

What might not be so apparent to one viewing this information (and might not even be apparent to the pastor depending on the situation) is the context of gift. Perhaps a family might be struggling financially although others might not know. Or perhaps the family chooses to support ministries outside of their local church, thus making their offerings to God appear "smaller" than they actually are.

A member might not give much money to the church but give generously of her time and love, but these are much harder to list neatly on a spreadsheet.

[ January 16, 2003, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Madelyn Hope ]

 

I think Jesus spoke to this issue.

Matt 6:3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I personally as a pastor don't want to know. It would prejudice me against the Big Mouths who don't give but want to have input into every decision.

 

On individuals I'ld say no . As for a whole as a church Yes. What a adverage is a month. Projected income for the year, as a regural business would make up yearly. The Pastor needs to budject and plan like anyone else. He needs to be informed of finances as a whole , not indiviually. The furances goes out he needs to know if he can sign the check to pay for a new one or he feels God's leading him to exspand the congergation he needs to know if that's even possible.
Jeanne

 

I don't think the pastor should be the one to handle the money of a church, so no I don't think he should. But on the other hand if it is a small church that he was use of God to plant he will know. I think it is for the pastor best not to know, as we baptist are not very Christ like at times, just ask most PK!
Bob

 

No.

The giving of a person is between them and the Lord, both the amount and the place.

The fact that church members know the pastor's salary os irrelavent, a lot of salaries are fairly public and anyone who is interested can find them out (as a teacher if anyone wants to know my salary all they have to do is look up the current workplace agreement)

As far as knowing what individuals give why the need? If people give because they are intimidated into it by some church committe they give for the wrong reason, If they give to show off how generous they are again it's the wrong reason.

At the church I'm a member of, the only person with any idea how much people give is the deacon who handles the treasury (I've done this job for a number of years - not at present) Such information is often gathered incidentally, and is regarded as confidential and not passed on t anyone.

Give as the Lord prospers you

Regards
Bob

 

OK, my second reply, I wrote the first one after reading only Dr Bob's opening statement, this after reading all the posts.

This may not directly address the issue raised, but gives some of my thoughts on it and related issues.

Firstly, the ability to claim offerings as a tax deduction !!! Not in Australia!!! If you give to the normal work of the church or mission societies you give what you have after tax. Some particular processes that are regarded by the government as charities may be tax exempt, but often they are then governed by a lot of government regulations.

Secondly, where i live, the state baptist union publishes reccomended salaries and allowances that are adjusted annually. These are based on average weekly earnings in the state, the idea being that the padtor should live reasonably but not extravigantly.

Thirdly, some pastors are paid, some are not. Unfortunately it seems to be a case that pastors and the union seem to discriminate, if you are paid, then you are a 'real' pastor, if you are not then you haven't made it. This is not scripural. I have no objection to the paying of a pastor, but do not see it as a sign of wether someone is the pastor or not.

Fourthly We give all members and regular attenders envelopes with dates on them, but not names or numbers. This helps people plan and be regular in giving, but maintains anonynimity.

Lastly of the above posts, the one that closly sums up my thoughts is the one by Amadaeus.

thanks for taking the frouble to read my second installment

Regards
Bob