Should there be any limits to supporting Israel?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 17, 2006.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    This question is mainly for Premill Dispies. I have read some comments on this board throughout the last few days and heard the same sentiment espoused on the radio, and other places that go something like this:

    The main idea that I have understood from these kind of comments are that because Israel is God's chosen people, we must always support them no matter what. I have even seen one person on this board claim that if America ever went against Israel, then that would be the day this person stopped being an American. Here is my question: Does the Premill Dispie position give a blank check of support to Israel no matter what it chooses to do? What if one day, they chose to attack America (Yes, I know this is unlikely)? What if one day, Israel chose to claim the entire Middle East as its own? None of these things are plausible, IMO, but they are possible. Do we really want to pledge our total, undivided allegiance to a secular state that has the spirit of Anti-Christ in its rejection of Christ and give them carte blanche to do whatever they wish?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. gekko

    gekko
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    Joseph. im not premill dispie...

    i will apologize for answering this - and this will be my last post on this thread.

    but i had to respond to a couple things you have said. if i may:
    ---

    for a biblical fact - every nation will turn against Israel. i suspect that person should stop being an american right now if he wishes. not good imho though. we are who we are where we're born and should support Israel if they are following God Almighty.

    which they are not at the moment.

    the Israeli army does not take the first strike - they would only attack America if America attacked first. unless of course their political standings have gotten so corrupted and away from God that is. but at the moment - they do not take the first strike.

    in the scriptures - God has said that Israel will stretch as far from the Nile to the Tigris-Euphrates rivers - further north still. I dont think Israel will chose it. God has chosen it - and He will see to it that Israel has that land.

    no. I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb.
    also - like paul says in romans 11 - all of Israel will be saved.
    ---

    like David the Psalmist said - "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem"
    ---

    sorry i had to respond.

    God bless.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Gekko,

    I only want to clarify further that I don't think Israel is an aggresive nation and that I support them in the current war because I think they are right. Most of this was a hypothetical future situation just for the sake of argument.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    As a "Premill Dispie" (Why does that sound so uncomplimentary coming from my friend Joseph? ;)) I will go against the vast majority of the group and say "No, Israel does not get a 'blank cheque' in the Middle East." I am not ever certain that the Nation of Israel established in 1948 is the Israel of the Bible.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Roger,

    How do you reconcile your statement above with the Bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    That was promise to the nation of Israel, the Jews, God's chosen people, not to a supposed country of Israel, which is a secular government.

    Yes, I will stand with God's people, but I may not always stand with this present State.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    So, do you believe the nation of Israel that God made that promise to no longer exists, or do you think God has transfered those promises to the body of Christ, and that we are now the nation of Israel? What exactly are you saying?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I do not think that the church is Isreal.

    I believe God will still deal with His people. I am just not sure that the present State of Israel is God's chosen people.
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Well then, who are God's people if it is not the Church and not the nation of Israel?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Sorry for not being more clearer - I believe that the Jews are God's chosen people, all over the world - not the government of the present secular state of Israel.
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

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    What about his Church? Are they not God's Chosen People?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Do you mean those who are only Jewish in the blood line, or do you mean those who may be Iraqi Jews, or many different mixes of heritage? Are there any pure Jews alive today? Don't we all eventually trace our heritage back to Abraham? Even most Arabs and Muslims have a legitimate claim of the Jewish heritage. Please clarify.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Sorry - I though the debate was regarding limits on the present State of Israel ;). I do not support that State without reservation.

    We can debate the eschatogical implications of Israel and the Chruch till the cows come home. Your question about God's chosen people has merit, but I think we veer from the topic of your OP if we go off in that direction. Pehaps we can dwell on those thoughts elsewhere - though I usually do not enter eschatological debates since I can see the reasonableness of both sides.
     
  14. LadyEagle

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    I will give you my answer later, Joseph, when I have the time to expound.
     
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Expound? Are you sure you should do that? Isn't that something a preacher normally does?:laugh: (j/k)

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia
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    I tend to agree with what C4K has said.

    I don't think God is guiding the present secular state of Israel. In the OT, Israel was a theocracy and clearly guided by the Lord (although they disobeyed a lot). This is not the case with Israel today. I do not think the church is Israel.

    The statement "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you" was given in the OT and I am not sure how applicable that is today, if at all.

    I have not sorted through all this yet so my thoughts are somewhat general and vague on it. I usually like to read the views of others on this issue as I find it rather confusing. :confused:
     
  17. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
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    Hi, Joseph. First I will do a cut and paste which partly explains my thoughts. Then, I will add a few comments, but will not "expound" tonight because it is late & I am tired. Tomorrow is a full work day & church, etc., so may not get back to this thread for a few days.

    http://christianactionforisrael.org/judeochr/miracle/chap7.html

    As you know, one day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel.

    This marked the beginning of the War of Independence.

    Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:
    1948 War of Independence
    1956 Sinai War
    1967 Six Day War
    1973 Yom Kippur War

    Yet, despite being outnumbered, Israel defended herself each time and won. How could that be? That is against all odds, seemingly impossible. Well, I believe it was with God's help.

    There is a terrible lie prevalent today and that lie is that the Nation of Israel was created by some imposter Jews, that the Jews living in the State of Israel are not Jews at all. I would like to know where the real Jews are, then, if there are not Jews living in Israel.

    Of course, DNA research has proven these conspiracy theorists wrong because with genetic markers it has been proven scientifically that some of the Jews presently living in Israel and elsewhere are direct descendents from the priestly tribe of Levi. DNA has also helped to prove there are thousands of Jews who have been living in Ethiopia and other nations - and they are relocating back to Israel.

    Jeremiah 31:35-36, God promises that Israel will never cease to be a nation of people. The Jewish people have always maintained their identity as a distinct group of people having their own culture, religion, customs, language, etc., throughout the centuries of dispersion since they were exiled from their homeland in 135 A.D. Even though the Jewish people have been scattered throughout the world, there are still Jews in Israel and throughout the world who can speak the same Hebrew language that is found in even the oldest of the Biblical scriptures.

    Jeremiah 32:37-41 says the people of Israel would return to their homeland. Jeremiah lived about 2600 years ago when the Babylonians captured the Jews. Some Jews were able to return to their homeland, but were forced out again by the Romans about 1900 years ago. Yet, millions of exiled Jews have returned to Israel from countries all over the world.

    According to Wikipedia: "At the time of its independence, approximately 600,000 Jews lived in Israel. Since then, the country's Jewish population has increased by about one million over each decade as more immigrants arrived and more Israelis were born, resulting in one of the most significant global Jewish population shifts in over 2,000 years.

    All the Arab Israeli Wars have not slowed Israel's growth. Israel opened its doors to the Holocaust survivors. It has absorbed a majority of the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews from the Islamic countries. It has taken in hundreds of thousands of Jews from the former USSR, and has airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopian Jews[7]to Israel. In the past decade nearly a million immigrants went to Israel from the former Soviet Union."

    Another thing: Think of this. The world attention is focused on the tiny Nation of Israel as I type this. The little nation of Israel which was nothing but a desert and rocks until the Jews came back to establish their Statehood in 1948 and caused the land to "blossom as a rose," just like the Bible said it would.

    The world hates Israel and hates the Jews. The forces of Satan have tried again and again to eliminate God's Chosen People from the face of the planet, and, sadly, even through those who profess to be Christians, and since 1948, Satanic forces have tried eliminate the little state of Israel, which is so little, about the size of New Jersey. Why? That alone is proof enough for me that the Nation of Israel, established by God working through men (as He is known to do) in 1948, is the same nation of Israel of the Bible, back home.

    God isn't finished with Israel. When this current ME crisis is over, however it ends up being resolved, it will not be the last time world attention is focused on the little scrappy nation that is the "apple of God's eye." Oh that Israel might accept Jesus Christ as her Messiah!

    A link:
    http://www.biblelight.org/israel.htm
     
  18. Marcia

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    Wow, Lady Eagle! :smilewinkgrin: And you said you would "expound" later! So what is this - just a few stray comments? :D
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Interesting. So, you believe that the nation of Israel is God's Chosen People, unlike Roger, who believes that Jews all over the world are God's Chosen People, and that it has nothing to do with the government of Israel or the Church today. Is this correct? Also, do you think that the verse that talks about God blessing and cursing those who blessed and cursed Abraham gives a blank check of support to Israel, a secular state which has the spirit of Anti-Christ, to do whatever they wish? I have been told by several Israelis that Israel has laws against proselytizing for Christianity. Do you support this as well. How deep does your committment go for a secular state of lost folks who totally reject Christ and teach their kids that Jesus is a lie and a fairy tale made up by Christians?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    So, you believe that the nation of Israel is God's Chosen People, unlike Roger, who believes that Jews all over the world are God's Chosen People,

    I believe Jews all over the world are God's chosen people and the Nation of Israel is comprised of God's chosen people who are continuing to return home since 1948. I believe the relevence it has to the Church (Bride of Christ) is that we are to support them and their right to exist as a nation, but more importantly, that we are to share the Truth of the Gospel with them, that Jesus Christ is indeed their Messiah. In fact, there are ministries which minister to the Jewish people, particularly in Israel, and Israeli Jews are turning to Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

    On a national level, I believe that God has blessed America for two special reasons: (1) That we have shared the Gospel of Jesus Christ through missions throughout the globe, and probably have done so more than any other nation in history. (2) That we, even though not always, but in particular since 1948, have supported the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel. I believe we have the largest population of Jews of any nation in the world today, with Israel being the second. I also believe that should we as a nation turn our back on Israel, it will be our doom for God says those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed.

    As far as Israel being a secular state and the spirit of anti-Christ, I would like you to define what you mean by that statement. More on the rest of your post, later. :)
     

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