Should we bring unbelievers to Church?

Here is a good link:

www.biblebb.com/files/pdc.htm

You have to admit there are weakneses of this kind of philosophy of ministry. Anyone reading this with an open mind can see the problems with it.

Molly

 

Oooops..try this:

www.biblebb.com/files/pdc.htm

 

First, let me say that it was not my intent to insult anyone's intelligence with the "brick and mortar" comment.

A ship pulls into harbor for two reasons; to offload its cargo, and to take on provisions for the next voyage.

 

SBC, perhaps you could explain what you mean by "a clear presentation of the gospel". Does this mean the simple facts of the gospel? Does this "clear presentation" demand that people respond in faith by believing Christ as Lord? Your thoughts on this might clear up some things.

 

I can't believe how technical this is getting.

1) We all know that the church is not the building.

2) There are different kinds of services that take place at the church building.

Would I invite my unsaved friend/neighbor/family member to church? You bet I would!

I pray that in every church building and with every local church body the Word of God is taught and preached. And where the Word is taught and preached, surely God will work on the hearts of man - both saved and unsaved.

 

I would agree.

 

Somebody agrees with me! Yahoo!

Thanks!

Molly

 

If you never invited a unsaved person to church, how are they going to get saved ?

 

Is that a serious question or sarcasm?

 

Have you read the whole thread? God calls us to share Christ with a lost world wherever we are,they see our godly lives,we share the gospel and they can be saved.

Do you think church is the only place people can be saved?

 

Dr. Bob,

I know for a fact that many(pastors) have visited Saddleback to see what was going on and they have claimed the same concerns...the preaching was weak and the gospel was watered down. I really do not think these articles were written without looking at the program in an indepth manner. Please give them a little more credit than that. I am not out to get this particular church...I just hate to see so many churches jump on the band wagon and *do* church this way,when scripture has everything we need. It is a church growth *program* with some good things in it,but overall,very weak biblically. IMO.

It is okay to disagree. I do respect what you have to say on many issues. Thanks for your input.

I am very suprised you are okay with this,esp knowing your views on so many other things. I know your son is pretty involved in it,so maybe you are more open minded with these concepts. I happen to see great concerns with it.

But,back to the original question...lost people can come to church any time they like!

 

And many pastors have visited Saddleback, left their preconceived human notions of "what church should look like" at the door, and come away with a renewed zeal and effectiveness of ministry.

I really do not think these articles were written without a good measure of all-too-human judgmentalism, jealousy and Phariseeism.

That's right!: As we are all aware, Scripture establishs one particular order & style of worship..........................now, if I can just find that passage again..............

Yes, we all know that being Biblical and seeing growth occuring in the church must be mutually exclusive.

Yes, Dr. Bob, please explain to everyone how you can be comfortable with methods & means of evangelism that result in the salvation & discipling of lost individuals?

Translation: "That's not the way I was brought up or trained to win the lost."

That is, as long as they "fit into" the 1950's time-warp model of worship that still characterizes so many IFB churchs today.

 

One does not have to be very bright to see the illogical jumps this article makes.

Molly, if you cannot connect the dots on your own, let me know and I will spend the unnecessary time to show the blatant errors of this article. Based on your previous comments, I am going to assume you cannot see the fallacious arguments.

And would you mind answering the question I raised above. Do you believe it is appropriate for the people of God (church) to plan events / gatherings where they can bring their unsaved friends, family, etc. to hear a gospel presentation?

I am sure whatever I suggest is a clear gospel presentation will not be "clear" enough for you. I do not believe a person must be able to articulate or understand the implications of hamartology, soteriology, ecclesiology, the virgin conception, total depravity, irresistable grace, and the last judgment in order to believe in Christ.


I echo much of what Dr. Bob and LarryN state in their posts as well.

Unlike Molly, I do believe churches should be evangelistic in what they do. Guess what? No evangelism - no discipleship. No evangelism - no fellowship. No evangelism - no ministry. No evangelism - no corporate worship. The Great Commission begins with going and telling.

 

I'm going to try to state the central issue here as concisely as possible to differentiate my opinion (and what seems to be Molly's, as well) from the pro-Saddleback side.

The biblical pattern is that the purpose of the weekly Sunday gathering of believers is edification, fellowship and worship, not outreach to the lost.

Does that mean you can't have a service in the church building that targets the lost? No.

Does that mean you can't invite unbelievers to the weekly gathering of believers? No.

Does it mean you should never preach a sermon that calls for people to trust Christ for salvation in the weekly gathering of believers? No.

Does it mean that there should be a weekly service for believers? Yes.

Does this have to be Sunday morning? No. My understanding is that some churches in the NT probably met on Sunday evenings because the Christians worked all day. I do have some concerns about making the seeker service Sunday morning because in our church culture many people think they've done their duty if they show up Sunday morning. If that Sunday morning service is evangelistically focused, then that segment of the church is skipping out on the edification-oriented service that they need. (On the other hand, maybe those people really need to be genuinely saved, so evangelistic messages might do them good. Still, I think 1 Corinthians indicates that it is the edification-oriented meeting that draws unbelievers to salvation.)

Is a cell group-oriented edification ministry to believers a valid replacement for a weekly meeting of the whole church on Sunday? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it. Certainly this model is inconsistent with the biblical pattern. Does Saddleback, for example, have a weekly meeting of the whole church that is intended primarily to edify the church body? Although they list six weekend meetings on their weekly calendar, it appears to me that there is no distinct purpose that differentiates them.

 

Yes,SBC,there have been occasions that our church has had completely evangelistic type events. But,our Corporate worship is for the edification and worship of God for the believing body of Christ.

We are bing equipped to go out and share Christ,making a difference in the lives of others by loving them,ministering to them,and sharing the reality of God's Word with them....we just don't depend on our church(or pastor) to do it in a Sunday morning service. I appreciate that about our church. Hopefully some of these seeker sensitive churches are doing this,also,but if they are completely evangelistic in EVERYTHING they do,they tend to go down the pragmatic road. (Whatever works)

 

Have you read the whole thread? God calls us to share Christ with a lost world wherever we are,they see our godly lives,we share the gospel and they can be saved.

Do you think church is the only place people can be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Nope I don't. I do know that it helps to be in one.

Is that a serious question or sarcasm? </font>[/QUOTE]Ouch.

My comment was one of support, not scarasm.

Sometimes we are scared to invite or even witness. I know this because I am. Asking a person to church opens up the Dialogue for them. Then you can figure out if they are ready. A casual invite to services plants the seed of wonder into thier minds. And the LORD let's it grow.


Note: I'm responding to these two posts not the rest of the thread so if i've said something else someone else has said I apologize.

 

No the biblical DESCRIPTION of what happened in the NT church involved these elements. What is also obvious is that people were being regularly and daily saved. We have no basis to say that these conversions were occurring within or outside of the gatherings. Furthermore the Acts accounts merely describe what was happening. They do not define a how the church will function following this particular era. Obviously things were already changing within the churches Paul established.

You have justified seeker services.

Still no problems then.

This statement is solely based on your own speculation and culture. It is not necessarily true across the board.

Actually the Acts accounts are very HOME oriented as well as regular gatherings. It is definitely not INCONSISTENT with the biblical pattern. If anything, the small/home group format is more consistent with the biblical pattern.

Their believers services have always been designed exclusively for edification. Warren spent 2 1/2 years teaching verse-by-verse thru Romans. I am not sure what they are doing at this time. They have recently been strongly emphasizing their home groups, which are discipleship focused.

As one can observe from your post and my previous points, the seeker-oriented service is not the problem then. It is the frequency of it and the time of it. When one truly examines the criticisms, they begin to crumble.

 

So your church does believe in seeker-focused events. You just differ on the frequency of them. You prefer occasional events and others prefer weekly. You tell me which one more clearly lines up with the NT example???

As it should be. But don't fault those who prefer other times and formats for the same purpose.

Sounds similar to most "seeker churches" I have observed. Again, you have misconceptions based upon what you have HEARD and not what you have experienced or observed firsthand.

Thank you for your opinion. We will continue to wait for the evidence to back such claims.

 

I just glanced at Saddleback's website and found in about 5 minutes 30+ different discipleship opportunities offered between July-December. This does not even include the thousands of different small groups they offer.

Stay with the facts people.