Should we tithe or give?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Soulman, Feb 19, 2005.

  1. Soulman

    Soulman
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    There is a poll on the subject as well but there seems to be alot of good Churches that do not agree on this subject.

    Please present your best arguments for both sides and lets learn something.
     
  2. Soulman

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    This is my position as written by Tim Morton

    1. There is no mandate anywhere in the New Testament for tithing. The word "tithe" or "tithes" appears eight times in the New Testament, and each time it is used is in reference to an Old Testament event or a concurrent Jewish practice.

    2. The epistles contain numerous admonitions, exhortations, and rebukes because of numerous sins and spiritual problems, but one is never mentioned for failure to tithe.

    3. Hebrews 7:5 states quite clearly that only the sons of Levi had a commandment to receive tithes, not pastors or other religious leaders:

    4. The Mosaic Law was given to Israel through Moses, not to the Church. If Christians are supposed to tithe, then what about circumcision, worshipping on Saturday, observing the holy convocations (Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.), animal sacrifices, a tabernacle, and all the other components of the ceremonial law? Numbers 18:26-28 says that the Levitical priests are to offer up a heave offering to the Lord when they receive the tithes of the children of Israel. Shouldn't pastors conduct heave offerings when they receive tithes as well?

    5. The statements Jesus makes about tithing (Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42, 18:12) are all indicative, not imperative. A plain interpretation of these passages doesn't reveal any command that tithing should be continued into the Church Age, which began at Pentecost.

    6. Christians who mandate tithing are making the same mistake as the Judaizers. They believed that faith in Jesus Christ is not enough, and certain aspects of the Mosaic Law needed to be retained for salvation and/or sanctification. In fact, the Apostle Paul stated in Galatians 5:3 that we are "a debtor to do the whole law" if we get circumcised or keep any other aspect of he law with the belief that this will add to what Christ already did on the cross. Today, circumcision is not an issue in the Church, but tithing certainly is. If the Apostle Paul were alive today, he might very well have written Galatians 5:2-3, substituting the word "tithe" for "circumcision, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye [tithe], Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that [tithes], that he is a debtor to do the whole law." This is a very sobering concept coming from the Apostle Paul. A person who is a "debtor to do the whole law" describes an unsaved person seeking justification by trying to keep the law.

    7. Undoubtedly, the Judaizers of Paul's time used God's command to Abraham that he be circumcised (Gen 17:11) as a proof text to illustrate that believers in the Church Age also need to circumcised. In much the same way, many of the modern Judaizers use Abraham's giving a tenth to Melchizedek after the defeat of Chedorlaomer (Genesis 14:17-20) as an example of how tithing should be performed by Christians. Since the cross, however, Abraham’s tithe has no more application to Christians than his circumcision.

    8. The Levitical priesthood has been replaced with the priesthood of believers (1 Pet 2:5, 2:9). So from this perspective, all that we have, money, possessions, spiritual gifts, belong to the Lord, not just a tenth of our income. Since NT giving is discretionary, and not based on a demand of a set percentage, this should dispel the common notion that one-tenth of our income is somehow "holy," as if God is some sort of a divine accountant.

    9. Those involved in full-time ministry should be supported by the people they serve (1 Cor. 9:7-14, 1 Tim 5:17-18). A careful review of New Testament giving reveals to us that our contributions should not only be to support our local ministries, but also meet the basic needs of poverty stricken fellow Christians (Acts 2:44-45, 4:32-37, 1 Cor. 16:1-3, 2 Cor. 8:1-13, 1 Tim. 6:17-19). There was organized giving within local congregations to care for believing widows and orphans who had no other family to rely on (Acts 6:1-4, 1 Tim. 5:1-16).

    10. 2 Corinthians chapters 8-9, and 1 Corinthians 16:1-4 state that a Christian is to evaluate the needs of others and to give as he is able to. NO PERCENTAGE GUIDELINES ARE EVER GIVEN. The Apostle Paul had ample opportunity to use the word "tithe" or at east mandate it as a standard to be preserved, but instead Paul gives us new rules for giving, which would supersede the Old Testament law for giving. If there is any single verse in the New Testament that nullifies the "tithing in the Church age" doctrine, it would be 2 Cor 9:7, which says, "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

    11. Love is to be our motivation, not compulsory legalism (Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Mark 12:28-34, 1 Cor 13:1-7). How much consideration we have for the poor, for example, is an indication of our spiritual condition (1 John 3:17).

    12. Those who preach the "tithe" as doctrinally applying to Christians are wresting the Scriptures to conform to their belief at the expense of the truth. They either through ignorance, from fear of ridicule of those like-minded, or from not wanting to admit what they always taught was wrong, continue to apply Old Testament practices in the New Testament, in essence placing those who hear them under the bondage and curse of the Mosaic Law (Gal. Ch. 3).
     
  3. Ben W

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    The Bible does not teach that Gentiles are to Tithe, that is where it ends for me, if people are teaching Tithing I would like to see their Scriptural Support for Gentiles to Tithe.
     
  4. DHK

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    Give, but the tithe is the least we should give.
     
  5. Soulman

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    Amen Ben W,
    So many churches carry over this heresy from the old testament. I have seen the bondage it puts people under.

    Church leaders need to learn to do what they tell everyone else: "Trust God with your finances and God will bless".
     
  6. Soulman

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    Quoted by DHK:Give, but the tithe is the least we should give.

    I agree we should give. But calling it a tithe is not New Testament. Or is giving a percentage of ones income ever even suggested.
     
  7. Scarlett O.

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    I tithe and I give offerings above the tithe when the Lord leads. That's rather personal business that I don't go around telling people. It's an act of worship on my part to the God I serve and that's intimately personal, too.

    No preacher makes me tithe. No church makes me tithe. God, Himself, doesn't make me.

    But for me, in a act of trust and obedience to Him, He has called me to do it. Because He has, I do it willfully and gladly and I do when I have the money and when I don't have it. That's a private matter, too.

    I didn't want to enter this thread, being as I will not convince you how Malachi 3 speaks so beautifully to me about what belongs to God.

    I didn't want to share any personal information about myself in this area at all....

    ....but hey,.... you did call my act of worship heresy and bondage.

    I've always wondered why people who don't believe in tithing get so annoyed with those of us who do?

    It's my business. Me and God. His call on my life. A private call. A personal display of my trust in Him and not money.

    Blanket statements using words like heresy and bondage of the Old Testament are pretty strongs words, brother.

    Peace-

    Scarlett O.
    YSIC
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  8. PastorSBC1303

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    Scarlett, excellent thoughts!
     
  9. mountainrun

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    Scarlett's quote...
    ============================
    I've always wondered why people who don't believe in tithing get so annoyed with those of us who do?
    ============================

    Perhaps because those who believe they should tithe because the O.T. commands it choose to ignore the parts of the O.T. they don't really want to follow.

    Those of us who give as we have decided in our own hearts, per 2 Cor. 9:7 are seen as somehow lesser Christians by those who boast of their tithing.

    I have seen that those who tithe are usually very stingy beyond that point.

    Most seem to see it as a limit, freeing them from any sacrificial giving.

    Tithing is a tax and a commandment.

    New Testament giving is an offering from the heart, not reluctantly or under cumpulsion.
    {Also 2 Cor. 9:7.}

    Jews today do not tithe as they realize it is impossible to fulfill the requirements of it.

    MR
     
  10. Ryan

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    Tithing for me is an act of faithfulness and I look forward to tithing, many people are stingy with their money and think that the church runs on love alone. A lot of people use the church and all it's ammenities but don't even support the church financialy. Is someone unsaved if they don't tithe? Of course not...but like I said above, it is an act of faithfulness for me. Do I boast about my tithing? No. Do I think less about those who don't? No. It is a personal decision and I choose to do it.
     
  11. Soulman

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    Quoted by Scarlet O.:"I tithe and I give offerings above the tithe when the Lord leads. That's rather personal business that I don't go around telling people. It's an act of worship on my part to the God I serve and that's intimately personal, too."

    Wonderful that you give the way you do. You shouldn't tell people what and how much you give. My point is that it is not a tithe. It is an offering.

    Quoted by Scarlet O.:"But for me, in a act of trust and obedience to Him, He has called me to do it. Because He has, I do it willfully and gladly and I do when I have the money and when I don't have it. That's a private matter, too."

    I believe as an act of trust and obedience to Him, He has called you to give. God never called people to tithe. It was the law. It had to be done. God has called you to give with a cheerful heart.

    Quoted by Scarlet O.:"I didn't want to share any personal information about myself in this area at all....

    ....but hey,.... you did call my act of worship heresy and bondage."

    Scarlet, I would hate to see you give one dime less than God asks you to. I am only saying and will continue to say that any preacher that commands his congregation to tithe 10% of their income(not even in the bible), and tells them that if they don't they are robbing God is preaching heresy and placing their flock under the bondage of old testament law.

    Back it up with the New Testament. Please study it out.
     
  12. DHK

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    If Scarlett tells you that she tithes, then she tithes. Do away with the techno-speak, or the plain double talk. She has decided to tithe, and so she does. Don't infer that she is lying by calling it something else. That is repulsive.
    It is also repulsive that you should call a doctrine that many Godly people on this board believe in and practice "heresy." To infer that so many are heretics is not wise. Please refrain from doing so. Furthermore those that tithe are not necessarily in bondage. As Scarlett pointed out, they do it out of their heart, and out of obedience to God. Your words offend many, no matter how sincerely you believe them to be true.

    Concerning tithing:
    Abraham tithed to Melchizedek (a Christophany), which was pre-law.
    Jacob tithed to the Lord at Bethel, which was also pre-law.
    Malachi, during the Law, sets out some very good principles of tithing.
    Jesus, in his own time said:

    Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Christ never condemned tithing, he encouraged it. "This ought you to have done." Never did he put an end to tithing.

    If the excuse is given that this is during the law, because he is speaking to a Pharisee, or because it is before the cross, then by the same logic were the disciples of Christ really saved because Christ hadn't died yet? Were they just Old Testament saints? That is not what Peter's confession says.
    John the Baptist was the last of the Old Testament prophets. The law ended with him. Thus tithing was before the law, during the law, and after the law. From that a reasonable argument can be made for tithing today
    DHK
     
  13. Alcott

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    If someone brings up the Malachi passage, I am going to comment that I tested God according to his declaration therein, and no 'blessing' resulted from it. The correlation coefficient simply fell out; the test failed.

    Now, how about you? Have you tithed, and you now grow such bountiful crops that no barn can hold them? Or, if you are unbiblically limiting this to money, is there no bank big enough to hold all your "blessings?"
     
  14. Scarlett O.

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    How sad...how sad.

    Were you looking for a check from a long lost relative or the lottery winnings? Did you expect a raise? Finding a $100 bill on the sidewalk? What?

    You tested God and He failed you? I don't think so.

    You were looking for the wrong blessing.

    I also tested God according to his declaration therein, and find that I am extremely blessed by tithing.

    No, I don't have overflowing bank accounts because of it. I wasn't looking for that! I didn't expect it! But I have found an increase in my trust in God, an increase in how He works in my life, an increase in His faithfulness to me, an increase in my walk with Him, and a decrease in my dependency on "things".

    And He was right. God, the Father, in His discourse in Malachi was right. No barn can hold ANY of that increase.

    What were you looking for in return from God? Do you read the Malachi passage as the financial advisory of the Almighty?

    That's not it! It's not about the money. It not about that humanistic view of Malachi that says, "what's in this for me".

    It's about trusting God and loving Him.

    I'm really bothered that you think that God failed. You might want to rethink all of that.

    You don't have to tithe if you don't want to. I'm not holier because I do. I'm just the same as everybody else. We are all sinners before God.

    Peace-

    YSIC
    Scarlett O.
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  15. Dave

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    The Bible holds a constant thread that we are to give "of the firstfruits" of our labor. Sacrificial giving is to be done as an act of faith (the widows 2 mites). Whether you call it tithe or offering, it is important that the giving is at least a certain minimum that you feel led to set. Whether that is 10% or some other number, it is an act of faith to give it from the firstfruits (before allocating out for other obligations), rather than out of what's left when all else is done. This is what God blesses.

    That being said, we should in no way limit our giving by saying "God led me to give 10% off the top and that is all I give". Giving should be from the heart and not limited to a fixed amount. I only meant that the fixed amount is to be a minimum given by faith.
     
  16. gb93433

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    For some ten percent of zero is still zero. Others do not have anything to give and should be given to.
     
  17. Alcott

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    Yeah. Ain't it? [​IMG]

    I didn't expect anything, but to disprove all the junk I had been hearing. Example: The woman retired from the cotton mill who claimed she resolved to give at least a complete tithe 14 years before she retired, "...and I only missed 6 days of work, being sick, for those 14 years!" I guess it's too bad God doesn't do things completely, and he didn't see to that she missed no days by being sick; ain't it? Another one was a friend about 30, near my age at the time, who claimed she started tithing and all her bills were paid on time, her kids had food, and the money..."I just don't know where it all comes from!" Evidently she must have thought anonymous donors make deposits to her bank account and she doesn't bother to balance it; or maybe currency appears in her purse out of thin air. No, she probably meant it was something like grocery specials occur at exactly the right time for what she needs, or that God makes them so confortable they don't have to use much air or heat, or maybe that He provides special effectiveness for their cheap insulation, or He keeps her car from having trouble; things like that. Regardless, there was nothing to indicate any blessing so vast nothing she could contain it; she seemed to contain it rather well.

    I don't either. The 2 possibilities were that He did fail me in this test, or that this test is not applicable to New Testament Christians. As I said, I think it was the latter.

    The Malachi test is to look for a blessing such that I/we cannot have room enough for it. Is that the one that was not produced? Yes.

    Have you known people who virtually, if not in fact, swear by something like a fad diet plan or a book on self-help? Or achieving their greater spiritual selves, as taught by Bhuddaism? or yoga? These people become committed to what they are doing and aver that it works for them-- because they are so determined for something to work for them. that they give it their time and dedication, and yes, much of their money. And tehy think because of all this they are controlling something from the spiritual realm, because they are wasting all this if they don't perceive it to 'work.' So they do. That is what people like you do with the tithing issue. Rarely does someone resolve to be a tither, or more than a tither, if they are not firmly committing more than their money. So then you think all this just has to work. If you really don't think this is what you are doing, then consider the Mormons; they are among the most rigid of tithers, as part of their commitment to their church, and they make the same claims you make about how they are "blessed" by doing this. But presumably you are an working adult, who has ends to meet, and you are meeting them your way, which includes your commitments including tithing; so it's not to be expected that you can see in yourself what you know to be erroneous in others.

    [quote} was right. God, the Father, in His discourse in Malachi was right. No barn can hold ANY of that increase.[/QUOTE]Now that's interesting. Your blessings are intangible, and that is the reason no barn can hold them. That nullifies any test on the matter. BTW, have you noticed that the blessings you claim by your commitment to God is our commitment to God? Cause = Resultalso nullifies any test.

    If I haven't made it plain, I was testing this according to what many preachers, writers, and Christians giving "testimonies" claim-- that you will have more money by giving 10% (at least) to the church than if you kept it all. That is precisely what the pastor of my church at the time said, directly citing the Malachi passage. My endeavor was to show there is somethng wrong with that... that is is not mystically simple, or that this does not apply to NT Christians, as it was declared to an agrarian socity with a complex system of temple worship and sacrifice.

    Say that if you want to, but I will quote: "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows"" (Malachi 3:10, NASB).

    That's the point here-- that people like you want to condemn someone for not trusting God if they don't so something NT Christians are not required to do.

    There is no need to restate what I have said my conclusions are about my statistical test.

    Well, we learn something new every day.!

    Likewise.

    [ February 21, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Alcott ]
     
  18. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Hey guys...I agree that tithing as taught in most Baptist churches isn't what the Bible actually teaches but I'll stop short of calling it heresy and I do think we that do understand the scriptures rightly divided on this subject need to "lighten up" on those who do choose to use a tithe(tenth)as a measuring stick or starting point on their giving if they are giving out of a heart dedicated honestly to the Lord.I get equally as "chapped" as some of you when I hear a preacher preach a curse on his people out of Malachi which they shouldn't be under but I'll just about GUARANTEE you that all they are doing is preaching what they were TAUGHT to preach.....and NEVER questioned it.We should teach and inform others of the truth....but NOT condemn innocent brothers and sisters who are simply trying to be faithful to the Lord in their giving.....however misplaced it may be.Now...the qualifier is that if someone is neglecting the needs of their family or their legitimate obligations in order to meet the edict of a mis-informed preacher...that may be cause for true concern.JMO


    Greg Sr.
     
  19. mountainrun

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    Great post Greg.

    Paul, led by the Holy Spirit said that "each man should give as he has decided in his heart," not as someone else has decided he should give.

    MR
     
  20. Aki

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    Israel back then was ruled under the theocracy form of government, wherein one rule is to give tithes, which are given then to the priests at that time. it is totally inapplicable today, as it is a nation-rule, and not a church requirement.

    as for the church, members are instructed to give out of their heart's desire, from zero to everything.
     

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