Sign gifts--Tongues etc

Not so, If each one had a tongue, Paul was rebuking them for it. Paul said the exact opposite.

1Cor.12:28-30
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The list of gifts is given in order of importance in verse 28. See how Paul says: First, Secondarily, Thirdly, after that...
Every gift is set in order of importance with tongues set as the very last gift in the list.

He then ask some rhetorical questions. Are all Apostles? (No). Are all prophets? (No) Are all teachers (No)...Do all speak in tongues--A definite NO. This gift was only given to some of the members of the body, i.e., the church at Corinth, as were all the gifts. No one had all the gifts. Not every member had the same gift. Read through Chapter 11. The body must function with each member having its own unique gift functioning in its proper way.
DHK

 

While it may be true from 1 Cor 12 that across the entire NT church NOT ALL had the gift of tongues - it is STILL true that in 1Cor 14

"EACH ONE has a tongue" gift 1Cor 14:

26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, Each One has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

 

28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to
himself and to God.

....speak to himself and to God........... IN TONGUES ?????????

Could the Apostle Paul please have your permission to say such blasphemy
concerning self-edification.....DHK ???

I'm disappointed in you DHK....You would insist on discouraging someone from
having a private prayer life in whatever way the Spirit chooses to move.

[ June 29, 2003, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

Paul was not writing to a denomination. Neither was he writing to some kind of nebulous invisible universal "church" which never did exist, and still does not exist. He was writing to the body of believers, the church that existed at the city of Corinth. He is answering the questions that they asked in a letter that they wrote to Paul. See 1Cor.7:1

7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me:

Paul was writing back to the Corinthian church, the believers at the church of Corinth, in answer to problems concerning the use of spiritual gifts.
In chapter 11 he compares the local church to a body, and describes how each person in the church is a member with a specific funcition. We all have a purpose. We all have our own talents and abiblities to contribute to our own churches. In the first century they had some extra spiritual gifs that we don't have today. Paul specifically said in chapter 12, as he listed them there, that not everyone could prophesy, not everyone could teach, not everyone could speak in tongues. If you do not believe that, you deny the Word of God.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Answer Is NO

1Cor.14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

The statement given in verse 26 is given in question form, and could be given as an exclamation. Paul was outraged. HOW IS IT BRETHREN!!! The church was in chaos. Everyone was speaking out of order, and all at one time. They all were striving to have the more "showy" gifts like tongues, for they thought that gifts like tongues, being more visible and miraculous, would automatically make them more spiritual, when in fact the opposite was true. They were more carnal because of it.
Verse 26 is not a statement of encouragement but of outrage and rebuke. Conditions for speaking in a foreign language are given in the following verse (27). There must always be an interpreter. There must never be more than 2 or 3 at the very most. They must always speak in order, that is one at a time. There must always be order in the service--never chaos. Even just these restrictions alone suggest that the gift was restricted to just a few people among the curch. Paul specifically said that no more than three could speak in tongues in a service in the church. Not all had the same gift. Not all could speak in tongues.

We haven't even begun to discuss the issue of whether it has ceased or not. I believe it has.
DHK

 

Could Singer use some common sense when reading the Scriptures??
Speaking in tongues is always, always, speaking in a known langauge (unknown to the one speaking it, but known to some person in the audience of the church who may not know the local language). It is not gibberish. It always needs a translator as the Scripture says. If you don't have a translator, then very politely shut up!!
There is no suggestion anywhere in Scripture that speaking in tongues is to be used in one's prayer life. In fact that goes directly contrary to the teaching of ALL Scriptural teaching on tongues.
1. Tongues is a GIFT given for the edification of the CHURCH, not the individual.
2. Tongues is always a real known language that requires an interpreter.
3. "Speaking to yourself and to God" does not mean, and never has meant "speak in tongues."
4. "Speaking with the tongues of angels" does not mean and never has meant "speak in tongues."

Now if you supposedly have the gift of tongues (which is for the edification of the church, i.e., assembly of believers), then you of a necessity must have an interpreter to exercise your gift. If you don't have an interpreter you are to be quiet. If you can't understand what you are speaking your gift is totally useless even to yourself because it is without understanding. It is also totally unbiblical because even you speaking to yourself cannot edify yourself without an interpreter. Speak to yourself in understanding. The phrase means pray. You can pray--talk to God in your own language, with your own tongue, with your own understanding. The key here is understanding. If you have no understanding, what is the purpose.

Would you trust a lawyer to perform open-heart surgery on you? If you follow the logic of the tongues-speakers and the Charismatics, why not??
The lawyer just has to "speak the language of the doctor" to understand the skill of the surgeon. It is a miraculous gift is it not. If it is that easy in one area of our life (linguistics), why isn't it so easy in other areas? The answer? Because what goes on in the name of tongues today is not of God.
DHK

 

Hi all,

Here is a testimony of a former charismatic leader who left the tongues movement because of many confusions within it. He cited 17 reasons why he left the movement. I believe He can shed more light to the topic since He was one of them before. He also discussed his experience in the light of the Scriptures.

http://wayoflife.org/fbns/17%20Reasons/17reasons01.htm

 

DHK,

To heed your warnings of unbiblical conduct, I would also have to consider
the warnings of the Catholic Empire that we have estranged from the Pillar
and Foundation of Truth (RCC).

Faithcontender has entered a site that warns of experience minded faith.

My parents warned me of "wolves in sheep's clothing" (members of organized
churchs) who were not of the strait and narrow way. We were home based
worshippers who had no 'hirelings' as ministers and sent our ministers of the
word out in pairs. Anything less was evidence of the"blind leading the blind".
Scripture proved it.

Sabbath keepers have warned me of the ills of intentional departure from
Saturday worship and rest depicted down to the hour of the day.

My Ex Protestant church has warned me of the Tongues Movement.
Charismatic friends have warned me of becoming locked into a dead church.

Well meaning Bonafide church legalists have warned me of my actions of
witnessing in bars/lounges during employment.

You have warned me of my unchurchedness.

Catholics warn me of your advice.

You warn me of Catholic's advice.

The bible warns of deception with no clarity what to base the warning on.

My wife warns me of the time spent haggling religious topics.

I think my wife is RIGHT !!



[ June 30, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

I have done no such thing.
I have only given you the Biblical position. Refute it if you can. It is what the Bible teaches.
DHK

 

have only given you the Biblical position.

And Kelly has given me bible position.
And Carson has given me bible position.
And MEE has given me bible position.
And Thessalonian has given me bible position.
And Catholic Convert
And............

And none of those supposed bible positions correspond.

Where's the Truth ?

Leave an open window for the Holy Spirit to work in people, DHK.
Don't put a lid on everything. Don't quench the Spirit.
There's more to bible application than what any one man suggests.

Who can know the Spirit?

 

I have given you the Biblical position. Refute if you can. By giving the names of other denominations does nothing to help your cause, especially considering you have listed 3 Catholics--all of whom shold agree with each other if their Catechism is correct on all matters of doctrine. But Catolics in general know very little about the Charismatic movement and disagree among themselves about speaking in tongues.
Of the other two you listed two cults, both of whom deny the deity of Christ.

I stick with the Bible. I have shown you from the Bible the Scriptural position on tongues. You are unable to refute it.

The truth is in the Bible if you will study it.
Search the Scriptures Jesus said.
Do not quench the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt speaks and honors Jesus Christ, not Himself. Charismatics (tongues-speakers) give too much honor or pre-eminence to the Holy Spirit, when Biblically the Holy Spirit came to give all honor to Christ.
DHK

 

DHK,

I have shared with you the story of my fellowship with God.
What happened to me was the result of prayer, bible study
(alone and with a protestant group), outside reading, pleading
with God to clarify issues and outright expectation to receive
His promises.

Because of your mistranslation of my experience of what I do
not consider to be gifts, but rather an answer to prayer and a
revelation with the Living God, leaves you in an ill-structured
position to judge my personal relationship.

As you mature in your Christian walk, you might eventually realize
that God is even more awesome than your closed-box views reveal.
What happened to me did not subtract from my faith and desire to
share the Gospel...it has enhanced it and it will continue to do so
......with or without your approval.

 

I have given you the Biblical position. Refute if you can. By giving the names of other denominations does nothing to help your cause, especially considering you have listed 3 Catholics--all of whom shold agree with each other if their Catechism is correct on all matters of doctrine. But Catolics in general know very little about the Charismatic movement and disagree among themselves about speaking in tongues.
Of the other two you listed two cults, both of whom deny the deity of Christ.

I stick with the Bible. I have shown you from the Bible the Scriptural position on tongues. You are unable to refute it.

The truth is in the Bible if you will study it.
Search the Scriptures Jesus said.
Do not quench the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt speaks and honors Jesus Christ, not Himself. Charismatics (tongues-speakers) give too much honor or pre-eminence to the Holy Spirit, when Biblically the Holy Spirit came to give all honor to Christ.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Since I'm still in the learning stage of what others believe, where do you get the idea that I'm of a cult? I've never denied the deity of Christ!

Another thing.........I'm not charismatic, if I was I would most likely be of the doctrine of the Trinity, which I'm not. I just believe in One God..not three.

MEE

 

I do not live my life according to my experiences. My experiences may originater purely from my own flesh or even from Satan. I dare not trust my own experience. I live my life according to the Word of God. If my experiece results from that which is according to God's Word then fine and good. Experience (or emotion and feeling) is not necessary in the Christian life all the time. It sometimes comes as a result of living it. It often is produced because of it. But the Word of God must always be the basis. If the Word of God is not the basis, if it is not the foundation of my actions, I doubt the reality of the experience whether it be of God or not.

"For other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.(1Cor. 3:11).
DHK

 

Basically anyone that speaks in tongues is part of the Charismatic movement.
If you claim to be a Christian and deny the trinity, I would classify you as part of a cult.
If you deny the trinity, then essentially you are denying the deity of Christ as well. For how can he be fully God if he is only one part of God or one manifestation of God. He is God, fully God. All the Godhead resides in Him.
DHK

 

Wow you go DHK

although I disagree with you that tongues have ceased

they have not

and Singer I just refuse to respond to someone who refers to someones else appearance and not their comments

because yes Im single, but no my nails are not well looked after - espcially my toenails -

AND THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC

 

Basically anyone that speaks in tongues is part of the Charismatic movement.
If you claim to be a Christian and deny the trinity, I would classify you as part of a cult.
If you deny the trinity, then essentially you are denying the deity of Christ as well. For how can he be fully God if he is only one part of God or one manifestation of God. He is God, fully God. All the Godhead resides in Him.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]As I said before, I am not of the Charismatic movement! If I was, I would be of the doctrine of the Trinity. But, it is safe to say that you are a part of Catholicism, since that is where the doctrine of three gods originated.

What you classify me as, doesn't count! It's just your opinion.

I do not deny the deity of Christ. If anything, you are the one that denies Him. The doctrine, of the Trinity, puts Jesus as the second "person" in the Trinity.

Hint:

He doesn't take second place to any god. He was God in the flesh and still omnipresent. Yes, you are correct in saying that, "All the Godhead resides in Him."

How one can say that and then split Him up into three persons is still beyond me. Then turn around and say that you believe in ONE GOD, but He is made up of three persons.

I suppose this is off topic, but just so you do understand that I'm not Charismatic.

MEE

 

If God is still pouring out his Spirit, just as He did in that day, then why don't men hear you speak in their own languages? And since most, if not all are already speaking English, the same as you, why the need for a tongue? We can already understand you in our own language if we speak the same language!

Nope, it appears what you say is happening today is NOTHING like what happened in Acts.

~Lorelei

 

As to being part of a Cult:

http://www.carm.org/

As to being a Charismatic:

When the shoe fits where it. Don't deny it.

http://www.reformed.com/pub/charismt.htm
DHK

 

DHK,

Okay...we wore out the experience thingy.

As for your comments:
The definition I use for "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a
group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative
scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that
effect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation

What I grew up in (2x2ism), may or may not be a cult.
However, the bible is used and the Trinity is unheard of but as with MEE,
God is still God and we looked to Jesus as the savior. One can't say that
the fact that the Trinity is not understood is not a reason to deny another
salvation. There are people in the 2x2 who definitely have and display the
Son, and that is the key to salvation. (1 John 5:11,12 "He who has the Son
has life") That's a hard one to judge of another person, as there are many
different personalities involved (human), but for one to claim he has received
Christ, it is to be respected.

So I would disagree with you that salvation is lost within these groups.
And, it is possible to obtain salvation and stay in these groups to do a
further work for God.

Look at Catholicism...with all it's evils, there are saved people within..(and
it's those who 'have the Son', not those who 'have the Pope'.