Signs, Wonders, Visions, Tongues etc...

True. That is the difference between what some call complex prophesy and simple prophesy. The former is truly revalatory. The later is simple, e.g., go here, do this, such-and-so will happen in your specific circumstances, this is a word for your (and perhaps your flock's) specific, pressing circumstances, etc. We get into trouble when this becomes a substitute for knowing the Scriptures and going on what is already given us as guidance and so forth. Complex prophesy ended with the closing of the Cannon, plain and simple.

[ February 25, 2002, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

As a matter of fact I have put a lot of time into studying this subject. So I know what the bible says.

Solid and sound scripture?
Isn't it all solid and sound?
Scriptural evidence says something diffrent then you do.

 

There is something more reliable that God uses to speak to us today--called the Word of God or the Scriptures you are probably(hopefully) are holding in your laps at the moment. Peter says that we have a "more sure word" of prophecy! No one at my church has to speak in tongues--basically because we all know English! And remember this--Jannas and Jambres resisted Moses. All of the signs and wonders Moses performed were copied "ditto" by those Egyptian sorcers. We have to be careful here because so called signs and wonders, tongues, healings, etc. that are running rampant today--can be copied by Satan's bunch. But I guarantee you boys--the signs may well be copied--but the truth of the Scriptures can never be copied!

 

od, just to tickle my big toe, what kind of signs, wonders, ect. are you talking about then?

 

Blackbird, a good post.
The bible says satan comes as an angel of light, he disguises himeslelf to look like oneof God's people to gain access in amongst us, to cause disruptions, trouble.

I haven't seen you before and your new here, welcome aboard.

 

Brethren,

God is still working miracles today. Notice, I said GOD is still working miracles, NOT man. The reason most folks are confused about the gifts of the Spirit is because they do not understand what the purpose of the gifts was.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mark 16:17-18, 20)

The signs confirmed the word of the APOSTLES and those who where PARTICULARLY chosen. Notice in Acts 8 that Philip had the gifts of the Spirit but was unable to transmit them to a third party. The APOSTLES had to come themselves in order to give the Samaritans the gift of the Holy Ghost. Since there are NO apostles today, there are no genuine gifts of the Holy Ghost present today.

People today are mixed up. God does still heal, but it is GOD, NOT man! I have heard Pentecostals say that speaking in tongues in evidence that you are saved. Whatever. I will just keep keep being justified by faith, not tongues.

Grace, mercy, and peace - Christopher

 

Let me give ya'll one on the subject. A friend of mine, his name -Paul Calais- a born again saint of God that I knew could call heaven down in his prayers every time he hit his knees. He was visiting in a "signs and wonders" church, named "The Nice Church" (NW In.) around the second week of December last year. He went into the foyer and decided to have a cup of coffee in the coffee cafe before the services. He was sitting there at the table enjoying his coffee and his heart arrested. He fell over on the floor in cardiac arrest. All the people came running. Pastors, laymen, congregants etc. What did they do? They called 911. What happened? Why couldn't they lay hands on him and save his life? They packed him in an ambulance and sent him off to Methodist Hospital. I guess the gift was with the Methodists that day. Anyway Paul didn't make it. We buried his prison and he graduated. Any of our resident theolog's want to comment on this one?

P.S. Oklahoma City Fed. Ct House bombing - No city in the U.S. with more tongue talking signs and wonders churches. Yet 168 died and hundreds go to the hospitals. Where were they? They could have been modern day Peters. Oh I know -- in the tents down the street calling the sick to come in. Right! ?????

 

Introduction

The main point of power miracles, which follow the believer, which does not equate with only the Apostles as has already been Biblically shown here (e.g., Stephen, Phillip's daughters, etc), was to divinely attest to the message of the gospel as having come from a non-man made source. In the days of the Apostles, God's message, when it was brought into a region for the very first time, sometimes needed God's authentication in a big way. That italicized portion is vital not to miss. Consider a Biblical passage where perhaps the clearest displaying of this is shown.

Proof Text

During one point in Acts, during Luke's travelings with Paul, they are en route to Rome via ship to bring Paul to plead his religious freedom case before Caesar (Acts 27). While on the Mediterranean, a storm of hurricane force arose (vs. 14), which caused the ship to wreck (vss. 27-41). In accordance with Paul's divinely given foresight (vss. 23-26), the entire crew survived by either swimming or floating to the island of Malta, where they were shown "unusual kindness" by the natives who provided them with basic human necessities (vs. 42- ch. 28:2). Notice, importantly, that Malta had never prior had the gospel brough to it

Heightening the natives' interest in Paul and Luke, God miraculously protected Paul from a poisonous viper bite (vss. 3-6), which resulted in the ship's crew being invited to the estate of Malta's chief official (vs. 7).

While at the estate, Paul and Luke discovered that the official's father was bedridden, carefully pointed out by Dr. Luke to be there sick with "recurrent fever and dysentery" (vs. 8).

As befitting a work where the gospel is brought for the very first time, Paul "went [in] to [the room to] see him and, after prayer, placed his hands on him and healed him" (vs. 8). Continuing on with the text, "When this has happened, the rest of the sick on the island came and were cured" (vs. 9).

A casual reading of verses 8-9 would leave one with the mistaken impression that the rest of the island's sick came to Paul for a miraculous healing, as was given to the chief official's father. However, a study of the specific language used by Dr. Luke to describe these events reveals otherwise.

The word in verse 8, commonly translated "healed", is the Greek word iaomai, which denotes an instantaneous event—in this case, an instant divine healing given to authenticate God's prime designate messenger, in this case, Paul. Don't miss it: an instant divine healing given to authenticate God's prime designate messenger.

But the word in verse 9, commonly translated as "cured," is a word altogether different from the one translated "healed" (iaomai) in verse 8. The word is therapeuo, from which we get our English word "therapy."

Like the word therapy, therapeuo denotes not an instantaneous event, but rather a process. As the highly reputable Wycliffe Bible Commentary has noted regarding this text and its use of therapeuo,

Assessment

The above passage shows my thesis in my first paragraph: God's message, when it is brought into a region for the very first time, needs God's special authentication, at least frequently so, since, for example, in Mars Hill this was not the pattern.

Today, as believers, we might expect to have God perform miracles when we bring a message to a region for the very first time. Such miracles were not limited to the Apostles, but for the most part, to those who bring the message of Christ into a rgion for the first time.

"But they have the Bible, now!" it may be said, "So those divine attestations are not needed."

True, we have the Bible. But what about divine attestation TO THAT--to the message we give FROM IT? Sometimes, God can see that divine attestations to the Bible's message are needed in given cases. But we might limit Him if we, frankly, just plain 'ol don't believe He does that stuff these days. We are co-laborers with God, and have to work with Him in these things, even as the above passge shows Paul doing. And what about when the Bible is available but vital truths from it are missing from God's people's minds?

An IMB (Southern Baptist) missionary to Muslims was once asked in a small group I was part of if missionaries to his region see many coverts. He replied, "That depends. Those that believe God does miracles see quite a few coversions. Those that do not believe He does miracles see only very few conversions."

Sometimes, Divine attestation to the Divine message is NEEDED, and it is the only truly substantial way that people can SEE that the message has a quality that indicates it is not come from man.

The preceding, incidentally, also answers the matter brought up by the person who saw someone have a heart attack in church.

Conclusion

It is just plain silly for us to be in a continual reactionary mode to the Charismatic's making a hobby of the gifts of the Spirit, which so often ends in them having self-decpetions that what they are doing AS those gifts ARE those gifts. (This is not to deny that SOME are valid. e.g., physicians, many atheists, filled entire books full of authentications to healings that occured in Katharyn Kuhlman's crusades). It is just plain silly for us to maintain that the gifts of the Spirit are not valid for today. Their being given by God to authenticate us and the message we bring is related to context and real need. We must be co-laborers with God inthis. I maintain that a more sound position from the New Testament indicates that the gifts of the Spirit, all of them, can and should be entirely incorporated into a sound New Testament faith today. Becasue without them, we may, at times, find ourselves to be doing God's work not in God's way, but in man's way, with man-generated results.

God save us from that.

[ February 26, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

Kiffin

No, actually the last we see of them is in 1 Corinthians, I believe they ended not long after, because the N.T. had been written to verify the gospel they preached. It is now our truth about Jesus. What more do we need? The gifts are no longer needed, they had fulfilled their purpose. Now scripture has that purpose.

1Corinthians 13:8-10

 

First of all I was trying to say was that we cant limit GOD to what he can do. Miracles still happen today, just as in the apostles days. (I have been healed from a deadly sickness myself.) As far as visions and dreams, God has more then one way to speak people today. If we put him in a box, then we limit his power and presence in our lives. Secondly, Iam in no way a charismatic, Iam a christian who loves the lord. I have question for the board though, well two actually. Why do we always stereo-type christians by their Denomination, is one better then another? Is the baptist denomination the only biblically correct one?

Peace,
OD

p.s.
I attend a baptist church myself and a member as well.

 

Once again, if a "vision" or "dream" or "signs or wonders" are not recorded in the Bible, reject them. Remember Satan can do all these things and appears as a angel of light if he wants to.

What on earth are you people doing in the first place? Are you telling me that you "feel" more spiritual if you jump up and down in a church, get all sweaty and emotional, scream and yell and clap your hands for Jesus, etc.? Oh, I get it, you are "spirit-filled" where as some Christians aren't. (Of course any born again Christian has the Holy Spirit living in them).

The Bible said your sons and daughters would have signs and wonders and prophsey. And they did -- at Penecost.

What we have now is the REVEALED WORD of God. Just think of what a treasure that is!!!!!! EVERYTHING we need for SALVATION is RECORDED there. All this other nonsense is just that ---NONSENSE!!!!! Not only that. All this "personal feeling" religion, all this absurdity of being "slain in the spirit" all this other personal visions and revelations is utter nonsense and a complete deception to keep you away from the Word of God.

I get really tired of people like Popoff or whatever that embarassing preacher's name is, yelling "Anyone out in the audience deaf? Well come up here and be HEALED"!! What falsehood!!! Of course the "deaf" person hears him and comes forward. Why are people so deceived by such junk? Because they haven't been taught the word of God, that's why. They think that church is a time when an adult can act like a 3-year-old, and pretend he has an experience with God. A personal one at that.

Flee from all the nonsense and get into the WRITTEN word of God. That is why God gave it to us.

Ovrdose: Of course there are miracles today. EVERYTIME a person is BORN AGAIN is a miracle. If you insist that you "need miracles", (I guess to help you with your faith) take the so-called "healer" you are giving your money to, offer to drive him to the nearest mortuary and have him raise some of the dead. After all, he has the "gift" of healing. Or take him to the local hospice and have him "heal" everyone. I mean, after all, the guy has a "gift" from God. When are people going to get it through their thick skulls that we have the WRITTEN word of God? All those miracles that Jesus and the Apostles performed were to demonstrate who Jesus was. It converted almost no one. Just like today. The gift of REGENERATION, being born again comes from the Holy Spirit, not from some so-called "healer."
Is one denomination better than another??? What do you think? Actually most of them aren't worth spending five seconds in. You need to read some DOCTRINE and find out what the Apostles taught. Then you wouldn't be asking such a question. The Baptists are far better than most, that's for sure. But you have to be careful and find a church that actually teaches the gospel -- not what they call the gospel, but what the Bible says the gospel is. It really worries me that you can even ask a question like that.

By the way, just like ALL the people Jesus healed, they all died. Healing this sick body is not the end all you know. We are here but a speck of time and then on into the eternal state. That's eternal folks!!!
James2

[ February 26, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

wow thats deep.... I see so much clearly now
I guess "all that clapping" could get in the way of someone sleeping in church.

Why does this trouble you so? Your way of thinking is the reason why churches are not full today.
Peace,
OD

[ February 26, 2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: ovrdose ]

 

Ovrdose:
I'm glad you were able to comprehend. Thanks for your very intellectual, well thought-out reply. Well, I don't want to get in the way of your jumping up and down, screaming and clapping for Jesus. After all, the more emotional someone is, the more spiritual, right?
James2

 

The point is not "are the churches full," but who is Regenerated and who is not!! I would say that on average, the bigger the church the further they have gotten away from the gospel and teaching sound doctrine. Of course, if you tell people how wonderful they are and I'm ok and you're ok, etc, then they flock to the churches. Just like after 9-11. What did that last? Three weeks or so.

You can personally attack me and that's fine. It means notning to me. I'm staying with the original question at hand. I state it again: Teach doctrine, not emotionalism!!!
God Bless
James2

 

Iam not attacking you no more then you are me... If I offened you I apolgize for the way I have behaved. Though me may disagree, we are still brothers in Christ.
Peace,
OD

 

Er...James, I hate to tell you this (since you are on such a righteous roll), but your "evidence" for miracles is anecdotal at best and doesn't hold up very well outside of the land of make-believe.

I found this discussion from a friendly board of intellectuals that I know of, and would like to share it here.

"The word 'miracle' has been thrown around a lot lately. Is there a good philosophical definition that we can agree on? Does that definition allow us to conclude if actual "miraculous" events constitute evidence for "supernaturalism" (itself requiring a definition) in general or the christian God in particular?

The dictionary doesn't seem to be much help:

quote:

miracle

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: “Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves” (Katherine Anne Porter).

Science advances by noting that certain events appear inexplicable by our current beliefs about the laws of nature. To conclude that an event is miraculous, one would have to assume that we knew the laws of nature a priori (or completely as a result of a subset of experience)--a claim that no competent skeptic makes.

Alternatively, a miracle might be defined as "an event caused by a god"; such a definition, however, would not allow us to conclude a "miracle" as evidence for a god, since the existence of a god is assumed in labeling an event as a miracle, and it is trivially unconvincing to conclude a proposition explicitly stated as an assumption."

Of course, this is a discussion from logic which may not be appropriate on this board