Simple Question?????

Jesus will get all that He purchased with His precious blood.

John 10:27-30(NASB)
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”

Romans 8:28-39(NASB)
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

When God created Adam and placed him in paradise - was it a "sure thing"?

Was God somehow "flawed" in giving Adam a choice?

When God created the entire planet - but then put only two people here instead of 10 or 20 billion - was God simply "over-providing"? Did He not "intend" for a planet full of people to use a "planet full" of resources?

Ohhhh - God provided for the entire human race but then Adam "sinned". Hmmm.

So Christ "provided" for the payment of all sin - but then mankind was "given" choice?

Apparently that model has been in use from the beginning.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

If you believe that Jesus suffered the punishment for all of mankind, why do you not also believe that all of mankind will ultimately be saved? Then you would be consistent. Under what understanding of justice do you believe that God will punish for the same sins twice? Do you really believe that after suffering punishment for sin that Jesus will be satisfied with the travail of His soul if, as you believe, only a very, very tiny number of human beings will be saved?

Ken

[ December 27, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

Do you think Adam did not pay for his sin? Do you think that God simply rejected is first created human? Do you think that in the 600 or so years of Adam's life there was no animal blood sacrifice? Do you think that Adam did not beg forgiveness from God? We do not have anything written more than what is attributed to Moses from "hand me down stories" and inspiration from God concerning Adam and his subsequent generations. There is nothing there upon which to base the conclusions you seem to be making.

Let me add this: After Cain killed Able and was sent away, did not Eve pray to the Father to give her another son? Do you think for one minute that God did not have a purpose for Adam and Eve, like populating the world with natural born humans?

God continued to use Adam for his purpose even without Adam being able to walk closely with God as before.

Does this mean that you do not believe God gave us a free will then set all the choices before us so that we can decide for ourselves?

[ December 28, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

"BEHOLD I stand outside the door and knock" (having already died for your sins) "IF ANY man hear my voice AND open the door I WILL come in".Rev 3:21

"God so loved the world that He GAVE His only Son THAT whosoEVER BELIEVES ON him might be saved"

" I DRAW ALL MANKIND unto ME" John 12:32.

"COME unto ME ALL who are WEARY and BURDENED" Matt 11.

"HE is the light that enlightens EVERY MAN... to as MANY as recieved Him to them He gave the RIGHT to BECOME the children of God" John 1

The Sequences are clear and distinct - although many try to invert them - scripture is clear about them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"God is not willing for ANY to Perish but for ALL to come to Repentance" 2Peter 3

"God gave Christ as the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for those of the Whole World" 1John 2:2

First of all Calvinist have that problem today - by defining "ALL mankind" as "Just the saved" - Calvinists are the ones who already have to say "ALL mankind goes to heaven". It is the Arminian that does not say that and it is as you say - because of the MAtt 18 "paide twice" model.

In Matt 18 we "see" the same debt paid TWICE. 23-35. Once as part of the forgiveness of sins and twice when the one forgiven experiences "forgiveness revoked". Christ then explicitly states "This warning applies to EACH OF YOU" - Believe it. Christ DIED for the "Sins of the whole world" - but you will pay for your own sins if you turn from Him.

===============

"I command you to ENTER by the NARROW gate for the gate is WIDE and the way BROAD that leads to destruction and MANY there are who ENTER by it.
The gate is SMALL and the way NARROW that leads to eternal life and FEW there are that find it
Matt 7:13-14.

NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the Kingdom of heaven but He who DOES the will of my Father..." Matt 7:21

You seem to have Christ's Matt 7 statement on the ropes with that one - or do you?

Since you're asking a subjective question requiring introspection --
Lets go back to the Calvinist future scenario - and plug in your "satisifed with the results" idea.

IF even ONE child godes to hell and God says to the grieving parent "Well you know I saved a lot of other people already and before I got to your precious child - I found myself to be..well.."satisfied" already.

The Arminian answer is that Christ being "satisified" has nothing to do with "I am satisfied with the relative distribution of FEW being saved and MANY on the wide road to hell".

Rather God "IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY" should perish. That "FEW" would be "NONE". And even by your own rework of Matt 7 you can't get it down to "NONE".

So "By definition" the "Satisfaction" is not with "the number".

In Christ,

bob

[ December 29, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

I know you weren't asking me, but I'll offer my answer.

IMO, God gave Adam free will. Whether or not God "set choices" in terms of "fully informed choices" before Adam is debatable. God made Adam innocent, which I assume also made Adam ignorant in some respects. Regardless, God defined tasks and limits for Adam. Adam could obey or disobey, which IMO is how you are probably defining free will.

Beyond Adam and the fall, however, I would have to address the parts of your question separately.

Did God give us free will? No, he gave Adam free will.

Did God set choices before us? Yes, most definitely. It says that quite clearly in the Bible, esp Deuteronomy.

Did God set choices before us so that we can decide for ourselves? No. If we had free will -- that is, the ability to "decide for ourselves" to make the right choices -- then only those who made the wrong choices would need a savior. The ones who exercised their free will to make the right choices could be righteous on their own steam. Do you know anyone other than Jesus who has that ability?

 

Do you think that the word "Adam" is the given name of the first created human? Sure, he's called that, but it also means Man the species.

Those choices are not what we would have established for ourselves, but they are all the choices available for created beings.

Your hypothesis neglects the fact that the result of the fall is that ALL mankind suffers from the single sin of Adam. Through it, we inherited the sin nature. Paul tells us "for all have sinned" so obviously there is none righteous, no not one, save for Jesus. Even Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness, he was not inherently a righteous person, but he was a faithful person.

The choices that God places before us are for us to act upon. And no they are not gigantic monolyths, that remain ever before us. As we make each choice there are other options that continuosly come before us for which we must continually make choices. For example, there is Jesus and eternal life through belief in Jesus, or the other option. You choose Jesus, then there other options that spring up based on your choice to believe in Jesus. To serve Jesus or simply believe in him. If you choose to serve Jesus, will you serve him whole heartedly or just part time? You get the idea. At each stage of our life it is we who exercise our own individual free will based on the options before us. We are not forced to accept or reject anything, but we are influenced by the Holy Spirit in our choices. How else would it be possible to "grieve the spirit" if we were not allowed to exercise our free will?

 

Yes, Adam can have two meanings. However, if you choose to spiritualize the event of the fall to mean something other than the sin of one man, Adam, you're going to have to use white-out to take Romans 5:12 out of your Bible.

Okaay... And your point is?

Huh? First of all, it is not a hypothesis, it is a statement of logic.

You cannot point to anyone besides Jesus who could be righteous of his own free will because all mankind suffers from Adam's sin. So the logic establishes this fact, it does not neglect it.

If we had free will, we would have the ability to will good (or to be obedient and not sin), and therefore not need a savior. If that is beyond our power, then our will is not free.

You seem to think we are only influenced by the Holy Spirit and not fundamentally changed. I disagree, but let's assume for the sake of argument that influence is how the Spirit works - that we could not have faith on our own steam, but with the power of the Spirit, we can choose it.

Does that bolster the argument for free will? Not in the least. If we cannot have faith without the influence of the Spirit, then to say that we choose faith of our own free will is utter nonsense.

I think it was Luther who illustrated by the example of a rock just how silly is this notion. What happens if you let go of a rock in mid air? Of what use is it to say that the rock is free to go up if it cannot possibly do so of its own power?

When confronted with this simple fact, would you seriously argue that, because it could go up with the help of a lifting hand (the equivalent of the enabling and quickening power of the Spirit), that this establishes the fact that the rock can go up of its own free will? Yet that is exactly how silly the argument is that we choose faith of our own free will with the help of the Holy Spirit.

[ December 29, 2002, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

Not true, free will has nothing to do with good or evil, for man has no power unto himself to will either into existance. That requires divine (outside the bounds of creation) free will. All that is for man, is to choose between good and evil, not to create them, which is, "willing them into existance".

How can you say that, you have faith in a variety of things the Holy Spirit did not influence. You have faith when you sit in an unfamiliar chair that the chair will support you. but once you are sitting and the chair is supporting you, you no longer require faith, because you have assurance. You saw the chair, assumed a faith in the chair and became assured of the chair. You chose of your own free will to have faith in the chair.

Faith in Jesus is the same. You first "see" Jesus, choose to believe in Jesus and once Jesus is a part of you, you have assurance of Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit that causes you to "see" Jesus, and enfluences you to believe Jesus, and to rely on Jesus. But the Holy Spirit does not see for you, believe for you or have assurance for you. You must do those on your own, and that is free will.

Of what value is an illustration of a lifeless object in this discussion. Rocks were not created in the image of God, they were not created with a free will as humans are because we are created in the image of God.

How is it possible to equate that which is not created in the image of God with that which is? Does a rock have the attributes of the image of God? I don't think so, it was not created for that purpose. Yes, I seriously argue against your argument. Your illustration is without merit in a discussion of the living, unless you are going to throw the rock hard enough to kill the living.

 

tyndale1946

Hearing about salvation and believing in it is a choice, the other option is hearing about salvation and not believing in it. Once you hear about it, you cannot unhear about it, so you must make a choice. A word spoken cannot be unspoken. A thought thought cannot be unthought. An action taken cannot be untaken. The only thing left is what do next with what you have heard, said, thought, and done. What you do is a matter of free will choice

Choices Choices Choices; with out free will, we simply could not live life, let alone live it abundantly.

Jesus has no children of record. He called all who believe in him brothers and sisters, and he told us that we are joint heirs of the kingdom of God with him.

So if Jesus has free will, and he calls me his brother, that must mean that I too have free will. Jesus said that if I have faith the size of a mustard seed that I could move mountains. Surely you will agree that actions I take are the result of my free will!

 

ok folks Im going to yell so that everyone can focus on what Im yelling on and ignore the rest of my post - instead of the entirety

JESUS' BLOOD COVERS ALL THE SIN OF EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD --- but But BUT WE HAVE TO CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT!

Christ's blood is sufficient for all, but not effective for all - not becuase of His own failings of which He has none - BUT of our own in that we loved the darkness rather then the light because our deeds were evil

NNE CAN EVER BECOME UNSAVED!!! WE HAVE MADE A CONTRACT WITH HIM! HE HAS UPHELD EVERY SINGLE PART OF HIS - THERE ARE NO MITIGATING FACTORS THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO BREAK THAT CONTRACT - AND EVEN IF THERE WAS - ie get out of Jesus' hands - GOD THE FATHER IS THE JUDGE - My Father which gave them to me is greater then all - and none can be taken from His Hand.

CAN PEOPLE REJECT ETERNAL SALVATION?
ANSWER THIS
ARE PEOPLE GOING TO HELL?

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY ADAM AND MANKIND LOST THEIR POWER OF CHOICE?

nowhere - the Bible only states that man's heart had become affected and thus his heart had acquired a bias - Not that his heart had been ripped out of his chest, thrown on the ground jumped on repeatedly, while spitting on it, and cursing it.

UNDER WHAT UNDERSTANDING OF JUSTICE DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL PUNISH FOR THE SAME SINS TWICE?

ARE YOU BEING PUNISHED NOW KENH - IS THERE CYBERSPACE IN PURGATORY OR HELL?

OF COURSE NOT

IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE GIFT OF GOD - WHEN YOU DO DIE YOU WILL BE PUNISHED FOR ALL YOUR SINS WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN COVERED HAD YOU ONLY ACCEPTED - PLUS YOU WILL THEN BE PUNISHED FOR THE "UNFORGIVABLE" SIN - THE CONTINUOUS AND TOTAL REJECTION OF SALVATION.

Yes that is the unforgivable sin - because I as a Christian can do all the rest after being saved - and still make it into heaven - though not without a lot of shame!

DOES MAN HAVE FREE WILL?
ANSWER THIS AND THINK
DOES GOD CREATE EVIL?

If God creates all avenues for evil to exist and thus by His creative power limits them - then fine man has no free will - But if God does not create evil - and in fact only tolerates until His plan comes to fruition - Then man HAS A FREE WILL - A FREE WILL which has been corrupted. True I currently cannot will a mountain to move - but If I build up my faith I can - and I could move that mountain without a love inspired motive as well.

 

I did not say it is, you assumed that is what I said. Jesus teaches in John 3: that we must be born again, then goes on to tell us that believing on Jesus, even on his name is what saves us and guarantees our Eternal life. is for those who believe believe in the Son of God to have eternal life (salvation). Since Jesus is the one who saves, regardless of grace, I believe Jesus. So long as I continue to believe in Jesus who saves, I can never NOT HAVE have eternal salvation.

I do not believe that God's grace is what saves, regardless of what Paul says. Grace is an attribute of God, a part of the essence of God that he simply does not "dispense". Grace is that attribute of God that works in a divine way like the grace each of us possess. We cannot give away our grace either, but we can behave graciously and do gracious things to others, but we retain every bit of grace that we will ever possess. Just as our grace restrains us, keeping us from lashing out with our "justice" (or vengeance, or wrath), God's Grace restrains his Justice toward us. His Grace is his dominant attribute now, and we are the beneficiaries of His grace. Without God being gracious toward all of his creation, mankind would not exist because it is in mankind where the problem lies. If grace were missing we would not be able to learn of God, or his plan for us. So Grace is important to our salvation, but grace is not what does the saving. It is our individual belief in God and obedience to God that saves us.
Jesus told us that belief is what saves. Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again. How do you say that one gets born again?

 

Not true, free will has nothing to do with good or evil, for man has no power unto himself to will either into existance. That requires divine (outside the bounds of creation) free will. All that is for man, is to choose between good and evil, not to create them, which is, "willing them into existance".</font>[/QUOTE]C'mon, Yelsew. Even Erasmus could write better doubletalk than that. Surely you could read the part "to be obedient and not sin"? Where do you find in that statement the claim that free will means to create good and evil? It is nowhere. But I'll say it again: If man has the ability to choose to be obedient (and not sin), then man does not necessarily need a savior. If man does not have the power to make these choices and therefore avoid the need for a savior, then the will is not free. It's as simple as that, and no amount of rewriting what I"ve said can make that simple fact go away. Or to put it as simply as possible: If you cannot bend your will to choose rightly 100% of the time, your will is not free. Period.

I'm becoming convinced that you do not think at all about the issues at hand and argue for no other reason than to hear yourself type. Do you not recognize that faith in the unseen is different than faith in the seen? It takes no spiritual discernment to have faith in a chair. So your example is meaningless outside the flesh, although having faith in a chair does happen to be an excellent example of how the flesh thinks.

But the point of the matter is that, in our fallen condition, we trust only in the flesh and have no ability to trust in Christ. So whether or not we trust in a chair has nothing whatsoever to do with free will as it pertains to spiritual matters.

Stop right there. How do you first see Jesus?

What does Romans say? "So faith comes by hearing the word of God?" No, that's not what it says. It says, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

You can't even see or hear Jesus without God's enabling power, so you will never have a choice to make unless He opens your eyes. The human will has nothing to do with that.

Chapter and verse? Of course you won't find one because not a single vers in the Bible says we do anything of our own free will.

But you're still arguing with a phantom you've created and nothing I've said. I'm not saying the Holy Spirit sees for you or believes for you, anyway. God opens your eyes so that you can see, and gives you faith as a gift. That's not doing it for you, that's enabling you to see and have faith.

If you want chapter and verse on how God blinds some and opens the eyes of others, there are plenty. If you want chapter and verse on how God leaves things up to our own free will, there are none.

 

I finally understand your position. You know how salvation works and whatever the Bible says to contradict what you know must be irrelevant. There's no point in discussing the matter with you anymore, then, since we are all at a serious disadvantage. We lack your personal revelation of the "real" truth.