Simple Questions about Rom. 8:7-9

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 16, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    1. Is the "carnal mind" the product of the Holy Spirit?

    2. Is the "carnal mind" the product of the new creature?

    3. Is the "carnal mind" applicable to those "in the flesh" in verse 8?

    4. Are those "in the flesh" in verse 8 saved persons?

    5. Is the "carnal mind" the product of the fallen nature or do lost people have a regenerate nature?

    6. Can "enmity against God" be subject to God's Law? Is it possible?

    7. Does the regenerated man have any aspect called "the flesh" that is not "of the Spirit"?
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2013
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    #1- No

    #2- No

    #3- Yes

    #4- No

    #5- Not necessarily. Eve displayed the three "lusts of the world" described in 1 John 2:16 BEFORE she sinned in Genesis 3:6.

    #6- Not while that person is operating in the flesh, NO.

    #7- Christians still have the lusts of the flesh, as we are commanded to walk in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. (Gal 5:16).

    These verses prove that while a man is "carnally minded" he cannot please God, and he cannot submit to the laws of God. This does not mean that an unregenerate man cannot operate in another state of mind. Jesus showed in Matthew 26:41 that his disciples in their spirit were willing to obey him, but they were greatly hindered by their flesh that exerted a strong influence over them.

    Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    This was written before the disciples received the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so is speaking of the disciples natural spirit, or "spirit of a man" as described in 1 Cor 2:11, yet Jesus said, "the spirit indeed is willing" to obey him, but their flesh caused them to fall asleep.

    So, while a man is carnally minded he cannot obey God or please him, but while a man is spiritually minded he can. Cornelius is an excellent example;

    Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    Cornelius was not saved, neither did he have the indwelling Spirit, yet he was described as a "devout man" who feared God, prayed always, and did righteous works.

    So, Cornelius was not "carnally minded" for the most part.
     
    #2 Winman, Dec 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2013
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    I appreciate the straight forward answers, thank you.

    The term "carnally" means "fleshly" and refers to what state they are in - "in the flesh" so I dont know how those "in the flesh" can act contrary to the flesh IF THEY HAVE NO SPIRITUAL nature?

    Secondly, attitudes and actions originate from MOTIVE and the only motive that does not produce sinful attitudes and actions is the MOTIVE to glorify God in whatever we think and do.

    Infants and children up to the point of understanding between right and wrong do not have that motive as it is easy to see they operate by a SELF-Centered motive.

    Both Paul and Jesus says there "IS" none good not merely there is none that DOETH good, no, not one. Paul says this is true of "every mouth" and "all the world" and that "no flesh" IS good (Rom. 3:9-20).

    So where does this RIGHT MOTIVE come from? The flesh?


    ,

    But we are not talking about indwelling but new birth which did occur before Pentecost (Jn. 1:12-13; 3:3-10). Indeed, there is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and one must be "created in Christ" or quickened to be saved for anyone at anytime (Eph. 2:10).

    What is born of Spirit "is spirit" and so he can be referring to the regenerated "spirit" of man - Jn. 3:6.

    You are claiming a person can be "spiritual" without either having the Holy Spirit or having their spirit born again (Jn. 3:6). So where does this "spiritual" mind come from if their human spirit has not been born of God and they do not have the Holy Spirit?

    Corneilus does not prove your point for all the reasons we have repeated over and over and over again.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unregenerate men are not always described as being fleshly or carnal in the scriptures. On the day of Pentacost, those 3000 men and women who were saved were also called "devout".

    Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

    These men were called devout, they truly believed in God, and they had traveled from many nations in obedience to celebrate Pentacost.

    These men were not saved, in fact Peter preached to them that they were responsible for crucifying Jesus. These men were deeply convicted and asked Peter what they should do;

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    These men were not rebellious to the preaching of God's word but listened intently. They did not like being in the position of enmity with God and desperately asked Peter what they could do. Peter told them to repent and believe the gospel, (for only believers are baptized) and afterward they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    The scriptures say of the wicked man that God is not in all his thoughts. This does not describe all men in the Bible. Cornelius thought on God constantly and prayed always.

    These men also feared God and were called devout. They did their best to be obedient to God, but they were not saved, and they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit until after they believed and were baptized.

    So, Romans 8 is simply saying that while a man is carnally minded, in this state of mind he cannot submit to God's laws and he cannot please God. But these verses are NOT saying that a man cannot choose to be in a different state of mind, as these examples prove. Unregenerate men without the Spirit can attend to spiritual matters if they so choose to do so.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    The lost are carnal and yet can choose repentance and confession, and the Gospel - due to the "drawing of ALL" John 12:32 - for as even Calvinists will admit the DRAWING of God - reaches the lost.

    But the saved saints have BOTH a new nature AND a sinful nature.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4

    The Bible never calls "Devout men" - "unregenerate.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    BobRyan

    The bible never says that devout men ate spinach.:thumbsup:
     
  8. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    The 3000 men at Pentacost were called "devout" and they needed to be saved.

    Cornelius was "devout" and he needed to be saved.

    Read for yourself and see.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Neither Acts 10 or Acts 11 says that Cornelius was not saved until Peter came to his house.

    Nor does the Bible say that no Jews were saved before they heard about Christ as the Messiah.

    It is true that the 3000 go on to accept Christ as the Messiah - but as the Apostles point out this is true Judaism to accept the true Messiah that the Old Testament is preaching about. It is not a claim that nobody in the OT could be saved with "just the Bible" to inform them.

    In Hebrews 11 points out OT saved saints some of whom were in heaven at the time that Christ was on earth (Moses, Enoch, Elijah etc).

    And 2Tim 3 we find that Timothy is affirmed as someone who grew up with "Scripture" which was 'sufficient' to lead him to salvation.

    15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    1 Cor 10 "they all drank from the same spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ"

    While you and I may differ on this point - I bring it up to show that the Arminian position does not rest in any way on the idea that no Jews were born again or saved via the method of the "one Gospel" - prior to Christ. For "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them also" Heb 4:2

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, you need to go back and read again, the text certainly does show Cornelius was not saved when the angel spoke to him.

    Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    Note that the angel told Cornelius to send for Peter where he and all his house would hear words whereby they shall be SAVED.

    So, the word of God itself tells us Cornelius was not saved, neither did he have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and yet he was called a "devout man"

    They had to believe what revelation was given them. To Adam and Eve it was simply that person that would come of her seed that would bruise the head of the serpent. To Job it was his "redeemer" he would see with his eyes. They had to believe that degree of revelation given them.

    That does not negate that the scripture says Cornelius was not saved yet in Acts 11:14.

    These men were not saved, Peter told them they were guilty of crucifying the Lord with wicked hands.

    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Reading without comprehension is no different than being illiterate.

    There are three heavens shown in scripture. We do not know which heaven they were in, but in John 3:13 Jesus said that he was the only man that had ascended to the highest heaven;

    Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    OK, not sure what your point is here. The scriptures made him wise unto salvation through faith in "Christ Jesus".

    2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    By the way, this shows that it is knowledge that enables a person to have faith in Jesus. Timothy "knew" the scriptures which made him "wise" unto salvation. This is what Jesus meant when he said that every man that has been "taught" by the Father, that hath "heard" and "learned" from him comes to Jesus in John 6:45.

    Agreed. They had to believe what revelation of Christ they knew at the time. But again, that does not negate that Cornelius needed to hear the gospel and be saved in Acts 11:14. You can't simply ignore scripture that is inconvenient for your view.

    I am no Arminian. I do not believe a person can lose salvation. I do not believe in Perseverance of the Saints, rather I believe in Preservation of the Saints which is very different. I also do not believe in Original Sin, so I am in no way an Arminian or Calvinist. I believe what I believe the Bible teaches, I have no name for myself except non-Calvinist.
     
    #11 Winman, Dec 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2013
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4



    The first heavens is above the clouds - where birds fly - dropping these men off at that height would have been fatal -- a curse not a blessing. Though some birds will do that to their prey..

    The second heavens is where the stars are - outer space. Leaving a human off somewhere in outerspace would be a huge health issue for that human - a curse not a blessing.

    The third heaven is the place where God dwells - where is the Heb 8:1-5 temple not made with hands. That is the only choice for "heaven" that does not end up killing them as a curse.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, unless Elijah was issued oxygen and a mask, simply being taken high in our atmosphere is a health risk.

    I believe God is able to take care of any health risk they would be subject to, he took pretty good care of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego when they were cast in the fiery oven.

    Nice try though.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,097
    Likes Received:
    49
    the ONLY basis for ANY sinner getting saved by the lord was due to the death of jesus for their sins, but under the new Covenant we are now under...

    NO jew/Gentile saved who has not received jesus thru faith!

    {Excluding those special cases such as infants, small children, mentally challenged etc}
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    If all the saints of the OT were lost (Listed in Heb 11) then the Bible makes no sense.

    If the saints of the OT (even Enoch, Elijah and Moses who went to heaven before the cross and Moses is seen with Christ and Elijah in Matt 17 on the mount of Transfiguration) - were all lost then Cornelius was lost with them before the cross.

    But how about after the cross. Cornelius lived after the cross and "is still lost"???

    How can that be??

    In The Gospels Christ comes to "Save his people from their sins" and yet as we see in Heb 11 many saints in the OT lived before Christ came to earth.

    The ONE Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

    And "was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:2.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    If left there to fly around on his own he would be in trouble - falling to earth hurts.

    There is no Bible text about Elijah flying around in the clouds to this day or being buried in a passing vanishing cloud.

    If we just accept the text as it reads the Elijah is taken to real heaven - the only one that is an option as a blessing and not a curse.

    And then that means all the saints of Heb 11 are real saints even before the life of Christ.

    So then -- are they saints under the "ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 or is this "another gospel" one of "works" by which they became saints?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do accept scripture. We are simply told that Elijah was taken up into heaven, which heaven we are not told.

    In John 3:13 Jesus tells us that no man has ascended to heaven but himself.

    Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Now, if you want to call Jesus a liar that is your business, but I am not prepared to do that. If Jesus said he was the only man to ascend up to heaven at this time, I believe him.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Indeed. Leaving him off on a passing cloud - to fall to earth ... not an option.

    Leaving him in the vacuum of space ... not an option.

    Only one real choice left.

    Jesus makes this a statement about what man cannot do... He does not make a statement about what God cannot do.

    God says He took Elijah to heaven and that no man has ascended into heaven.

    Same place.

    God is not talking about what He cannot do for man - but what man himself cannot do. And indeed Christ was the only human to descend from heaven and the only one able to take himself into heaven.

    I don't think that adding a lot of inference to it - works because then you end up dropping off Enoch and Elijah in outer space or having them fall from a cloud.

    In any case the Arminian position does not require that there were no OT saints or that the OT saints were "saved by works" or saved under a different Gospel that was preached to "US" Heb 4:2.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

Share This Page

Loading...