SIN DOES NOT SEND MAN TO HELL....Bear With Me...lol

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Matt22:37-39, Oct 13, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a misconception among believers that SIN is what separates them from God. That in order to find favor with God they must not do any thing "bad".

    According to scripture there is only ONE condition that will not be forgiven, and it isn't suicide (another misunderstood topic) and that is according to Matt 12:31 ""Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."...meaning, that if one hears the gospel "The Good News" of how Jesus died for ALL their sins, how they need to repent of their sins and make Jesus Lord of their life, and if they really meant it in their heart, that the Holy Spirit will come in and GIVE them new life, and now have eternal life and fellowship with a God they didn't have before. Whew, that was long....OK, so one hears all that and the HS is nudging them to respond and they do not....that REJECTION is what separates man from God which automatically sends him to Hell. Hell is basically everything that is opposite of God...

    God is LIGHT....Hell Darkness
    God is LOVE....Hell is gnashing of teeth and pain
    God is COMFORT...Hell is torment
    God is GOOD...Hell is bad

    I'm sure your still wondering well if our sins doesn't separate us from God what does?
    It is the fact that we were born with a SIN CONDITION!

    That is why Jesus said in John 3:7 "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN" To Nicodemus...and Nicodemus wasn't getting it, he said..."how can a man go back into his mothers womb"...and Jesus went on to tell him it was spiritual, not physical...He basically was saying we are all born in a sin condition because of Adam, and He came to RENEW it. Now although God forgave Adam and Eve their sin through the SHED BLOOD offering (Forgiveness and Faith) and covering of an animals after they repented. God set into motion a series of events and conditions...one of those conditions was that mankind would be born SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY from God....

    Man is a 3 part being, BODY....SOUL (mind, emotions and will)....SPIRIT. That is the way God created man, but man blew it by disobedience and now is born only BODY and SOUL.
    When one comes to the age of accountability (whatever that may be...individually depends) and hears the gospel, if he SINCERELY YIELDS to this CALL, his SPIRIT which was dead, is now made alive, enlightened and now this person can have fellowship with God that he couldn't before...NOT out of fear or brownie points, but because of mutual love and respect. Like any good marriage.

    See, the point is we still have to deal with this BODY (Paul says this in Romans 7) and our mind, emotions and will. So we still SIN, and will keep doing so till we go home and get a new body and a new mind.

    In the mean time, when God looks down, He doesn't me the SINNER, but Jesus's RIGHTEOUSNESS IN ME, Paul talks a lot about this in Romans..."His blood made me as white as snow"...therefore in God's eyes I AM RIGHTEOUS, not because of anything I have done, but what Jesus did for me.

    So next time you hear or think what you do or don't (Sins of commission and omission) determines your STANDING with God, just remember God LOOKS at the HEART and man the outward. All sin does now is EFFECT your RELATIONSHIP with God, not who you are In Christ, Your standing or position with Him in Heaven, or how much he loves you...like any MARRIAGE your sin and communication will either draw you closer to God or further away...HE NEVER MOVES...YOU DO and I DO.

    :godisgood:
     
  2. TC

    TC
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    10
    Didn't you start an identical thread in the other Christian denomination forum? That is against the rules. You need to decide where you want to discuss this and ask a moderator to close the other one.

    That said, it should be an interesting topic and I look forward to reading others take on it.
     
  3. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you which one gets the most traffic...maybe I can check

    OK, want to delete the other one but don't know how?
     
    #3 Matt22:37-39, Oct 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2012
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you must believe all babies and little children who die go straight to hell, because they are born sinners (which is an action, not a condition).

    Funny, if we are born sinners separated from God, why did Jesus tell his disciples they must be converted and become as little children?

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Was Jesus telling his disciples they need to be converted and become wicked little sinners that are separated from God to enter the kingdom of heaven?

    Jesus also said that angels watch over little children.

    Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

    Does God set angels to guard over wicked little sinners who are separated from God?

    I think you might need to reconsider your view, it is not wise to teach error.
     
  5. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    0
    No I said there is an age of accountability the bible is clear about this, so ALL babies go to heaven and little children. We do not know what age that would be, as each is an individual and God decides when that is. I do know it is a matter of ones UNDERSTANDING to the gospel as indicated by Matt 12:31

    Jesus told His disciples to become like children in their FAITH, kids naturally have faith, we rely on ourselves.

    Not sure you really had an argument there, but nice try.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I DO have an argument. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. If children are sinners as you claim, then Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become sinners to enter heaven. Nonsensical.

    No, this only makes sense if little children are not sinners.

    Sin is transgression of God's law. It is not something you are born with like blue eyes or blond hair.

    1 Jhn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Sin is breaking God's law. It is not a condition like being born with a disease. You can't be born a sinner, you have to break God's law to be a sinner.

    You are the one who needs to try again.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Double Post
     
    #7 Winman, Oct 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2012
  8. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is your mission here to contradict everything that is orthodox?

    Yes, we go to hell because of sin, both original and the actual sins we commit.
     
  9. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where is the Bible clear about this?
     
  10. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    If what you consider orthodox is error and disagrees with scripture, then yes.

    Being orthodox does not mean something is correct. For a Catholic, it is orthodox to believe the wine and bread literally turn into the blood and body of Christ. This is orthodox in the RCC, and it is absolute error.

    Because something is orthodox never proves it is correct or scriptural.
     
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Winman, that is true. However, I am assuming orthodox in the context of this board, which is to require that its members are baptist. There are many details we as baptists disagree on, but certain things, such as the doctrine of sin should be consistent.
     
  12. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see much orthodoxy here, we have Reformed Baptists, non-Cal Baptists, even a few Charismatic Baptists.

    Not all Baptists believe in Original Sin, John Smyth who is credited with starting the "Baptist" denomination did not believe in Original Sin.

    I read this statement by a Catholic once about Baptists, the fellow has a real point;

    This fellow is correct, many of you claim Original Sin is true, yet deny it in actuality. If Original Sin is really true, then all children who die before they trust in Jesus go to hell.
     
  13. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't deny original sin and I don't claim a child is innocent before the so called "age of accountability". I am not sure what happens to a child who dies in infancy, but I do believe that everyone who will be in heaven will be there because of God's grace, specifically due to Christ's atoning work.

    Now, as to many baptists being inconsistent on this topic, you are exactly correct come to think of it.
     
  14. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I am consistent, I do not believe in Original Sin, and I DO believe in the age of accountability. Just a few scriptures I believe supports the age of accountability are Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Rom 7:9-11 and others.

    The fellow who started this thread is inconsistent, he claims a person cannot enter heaven because he is born sinful, and then contradicts himself and says he believes in the age of accountability.

    Most Baptists do not REALLY believe in Original Sin, although they THINK they do. They hold to two contradictory positions at the same time.
     
  15. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    0
    David was assured by Nathan that his son would die and would be with God...not just children, but anyone who is not able to UNDERSTAND the gospel.

    I think Matt 12:31 says it all...the ONLY SIN that will not be forgiven is rejecting the Holy Spirit and how can a child or someone with a mental handicap do that if they are not able to understand?

    That is why I believe babies, unborn, children and others of a certain understanding all go to heaven.
     
  16. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you do not really believe in Original Sin. If you believed in Original Sin you would believe children are GUILTY of Adam's sin.

    What you really believe is that a person becomes a sinner when they knowingly sin against God. Very good, that is scriptural.

    What you probably believe is that men are born with a propensity to sin because of Adam. This is true in some respects. Adam and Eve were made flesh and were able to sin from the beginning. When they sinned, corruption was introduced into the world. This corruption may contribute to a propensity to sin, the flesh is described as "infirmity" or weakness in scripture.

    Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    Infirmity literally means weakness or want of strength. The corruption Adam introduced into the world may very well contribute to our infirmity and make it more probable and easier to sin. We also are influenced by all the evil around us.

    Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    This verse was written before the disciples received the Holy Spirit. Jesus said his disciple's spirits were willing to obey him, but their flesh was weak. This is why men are so prone to sin.

    But going back, Original Sin teaches that men are born guilty of Adam's sin. If you believe in the age of accountability, then you do not believe in Original Sin. The Catholics baptized babies to wash away Adam's sin, we Baptists do not do this.
     
  17. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    So are you saying that some come in some other way that through Christ? If a child dies and goes to heaven, it is through the saving Grace of of Christ, not due to any innocence on the part of the child.

    Please quote the passage where Nathan explains this. I don't remember reading this.
    David does say that he will go and see his son, but it is far from a full explanation of the doctrine.
     
  18. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,156
    Likes Received:
    322
    Little children are free from sin and without guilt because they are not yet convicted of sin.

    We are to return to that condition by being saved after which we are again free from sin and without guilt (at least that's what happened to me).

    If what you say is true then babies would never die an untimley death being without sin.

    Why should innocent babies die who have no sin (as you claim)?
    The only answer is that they die as a result of Adam's sin since they have none of their own.

    HankD
     
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Close but no Cigar

    Yes, we Christians have many misconceptions, otherwise we would all believe the same things. I think the Calvinists and Arminians hold mistaken views. They return the favor.

    1) Scripture says our sin causes a separation between God and man, for He is holy, and therefore because we are unholy, we must be separated from God. The separation is a "sinful" condition.

    2) Scripture says the many were made sinners by the transgression of the one (Adam) therefore as a consequence of Adam's sin, we are conceived in iniquity, which is unholy and therefore in a separated from God condition.

    3) We all sin, and have fallen short of the glory of God, therefore with each sin, we not only reinforce the separation, we store up wrath for ourselves and we will receive punishment for our deeds in Hades and Gehenna.

    4) If we reject Jesus, do not believe His miracles such as healing the sick, and rising from the grave, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and so, we will not be forgiven because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. But even if we reject Jesus at first, like His half brothers, James and Jude, if we come to our senses and change our minds and do believe from our heart Jesus rose from the dead, we will be saved. In summary, if we die in unbelief, we will not be forgiven.]

    5) The gospel of Christ is the work product of the Holy Spirit, who inspired the very words of the gospel, as well as providing the power by which Jesus performed His miracles. And so we are nudged, exhorted, and commanded to believe by the Holy Spirit through the gospel of Christ.

    6) Yes, we must be born again to be saved, for we were conceived in iniquity, and so our birth into say a Jewish home or a Christian home, does not save us. Bloodline or culture or the beliefs of our loved ones will not make us white as snow, only the precious blood of Jesus.

    7) God is life, so we are made alive together with Christ. Before we are "together" united with Christ we are not alive, therefore we are spiritually separated from God which means we are separated, dead, in our trespasses. No one is regenerated outside of Christ, all who are regenerated were first placed in Christ, baptized spiritually into His death, circumcised with the circumcision done without hands where our body of flesh (sin) is removed and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.

    8) We are flesh and spirit, and our soul is the core characteristics of our spirit, so we are a two part creation.

    9) God forms our spirit within us, therefore we are born with a spirit.

    10) Yes when we are conceived we have not done anything good or bad, but we are conceived in a separated from God state, thus condemned already because of unbelief. Those that die before they have done anything bad still die in unbelief. Some folks try to add to scripture and speculate God fixes this by sending a dream to them which compels them to trust in Christ such that they enter heaven. But such arguments from silence are the invention of men.
     
  20. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    HankD, were you meaning to quote someone with the first part of this?

    Children are not "free from sin". Both of my daughters were born sinners and started exercising their own sinful wills virtually immediately.

    If one must be confronted with the law in order to be guilty, then the worst thing we can do is to send missionaries to peoples that have never heard the Gospel.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...