Featured SIN DOES NOT SEND MAN TO HELL....Bear With Me...lol

Sin was not responsible for Adam and Eve's physical death, otherwise eating of the tree of life would be of no effect. The reason Adam and Eve physically died is because they were barred from the tree of life.

All men die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin. Man was barred from the tree of life and thus will die.

This is actually a blessing, otherwise men would live eternally in sin. Mortality is one of the great incentives to turn from sin and trust Jesus.

In heaven the curse will be removed and men will be allowed to eat of the tree of life and will live forever.

Paul is not speaking of physical death in Romans 5 or Romans 7, but spiritual death. Paul said that sin entered the world by Adam and death (spiritual) by sin, and so death (not sin) passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. That is, all men have committed their own personal sin.

That Paul is speaking of spiritual death is easy to determine by looking at the terms used in this chapter. Paul speaks of righteousness and justification, he speaks of transgression and condemnation. These are all legal terms, Paul is not speaking of physical death here.

If you believe that spiritual death is unconditionally imputed to all men because of Adam, then you must also believe that righteousness is unconditionally imputed to all men because of Jesus. This is not what Paul is teaching in Romans 5, but rather that death passes or is imputed to all who sin, and righteousness is imputed to all who trust Christ.

 

Not so, the scriptures say men have the law written on their hearts and therefore shall perish without the law.

You don't have to have a written law to know lying, stealing, or killing is wrong, men innately understand this.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

The scriptures also say what may be known of God is revealed to all men so that all are without excuse. However, this is speaking of men, not newborn babies or very little children. Scriptures such as Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16, and Jon 4:11 clearly show that little children cannot distinguish between good and evil and are not held accountable.

Note that Paul is speaking of spiritual death in these scriptures, he equates "perishing" with being "judged".

 

What is wrong is that you ASSUME that a person must have a sin nature to sin. The reason I call that an assumption is because the scriptures clearly show that a sin nature is not necessary to sin.

Question, did Satan have a sin nature when God created him? NO, the scriptures say Satan was perfect when he was created.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was created perfect. He did not have a sin nature. But he was able to sin wasn't he? This proves you do not have to have a sin nature to sin, all you need is free will and a lack of faith in God.

Did the fallen angels who followed Satan and Adam and Eve have a sin nature when they were created? NO, they were all "very good" in God's own words.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

"Every thing" that God made was very good. Satan was good, the angels who fell were good, and Adam and Eve were good. None of these had a sin nature originally, yet all of them sinned.

So, while it is possible that a sin nature explains why we sin, it is pure assumption to believe we sin because we are born with a sin nature. You need scripture that directly tells us this, and there is no such scripture that says men are born with a sin nature. You cannot possibly show it.

Is there scripture that says man is not born sinful? YES.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Many falsely claim this verse is speaking of Adam only, but the word "they" is plural and points directly to the word "man" showing this verse is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Are there more scriptures that say men are made upright? I believe so.

Jam 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Did James say we are born evil with a sin nature? NO, he said we are made after the similitude or likeness of God. In fact, I believe that calling men evil is a fulfillment of this very verse, cursing men who are made after the similitude of God.

I could show you many more verses that show men are not born dead in sin, but this is something you need to study for yourself.

But your premise from the beginning is flawed, because all men sin does not prove we are born with a sin nature.

 

No, scripture says God has made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions. All men go astray in sin and become lost. Men are not originally lost.

Read Luke 15 where Jesus tells three stories about sinners who repent. He first tells of a shepherd who has 100 sheep. One goes astray and becomes lost, the shepherd seeks for this lost sheep and recovers it, and rejoices. Jesus then explains this is a lost sinner who repents. But the lost sheep was not originally lost was he?

Then he tells of a woman with 10 pieces of silver. One is lost, she searches and recovers it and rejoices. Jesus explains this is a sinner who repents. But the coin was not originally lost was it?

Was the prodigal son originally lost? NO, he was at home with his father, he willingly left home and went out in sin, joining himself to a citizen of a far country (Satan). When he repents and returns home, twice Jesus said the boy was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

If we are born dead in sin, separated from God, how could Jesus say the prodigal son was alive AGAIN? He couldn't. But if we are not born lost in sin, but become lost after birth and then repent, then it can be said we are alive AGAIN.

But there is more, much more.

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter, like Jesus in Luke 15 says we are like a sheep that has left the flock and gone astray, but are now RETURNED to Jesus. If we are born dead in sin, separated from God, it would not be possible to say we are returned to God. You cannot return someplace you have never been.

I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been there. I can return to California, because I went there many years ago.

The scriptures do not show us as being BORN lost in sin, they show the exact opposite.

I realize this is new to you, but read scripture and see for yourself.

 

Your posts are confusing. You mentioned earlier an age of accountability, yet you speak of all being born spiritually dead and separated from God; that one must be born again to have fellowship with God.

The Bible speaks of no such thing as "age of accountability". If there is such an age, what is it? Five years? Six? Twelve? Some other age?

The fact is, all are born spiritually dead and unless they make a profession of faith in Christ they will spend eternity in hell. Age has nothing to do with it. Paul wrote in Romans 3:23 that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Since there are babies born practically every moment of the day, I would say that when Paul said that "all have sinned," there was a newborn out there somewhere who was included in the "all".

Am I saying newborns who die never have the chance to accept Christ as Lord and Savior? Not at all. I believe God reveals Himself to all... even the newborn, and gives them the chance to trust Him.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For this reason, I believe that even that newborn has a chance to turn to God.

 

You all contradict yourselves. You all want to believe that we are born dead in sin, yet none of you wants to believe that a baby who dies goes to hell. Your innate sense of justice tells you it is unjust for a baby or small child to go to hell.

All this confusion simply because you believe the false doctrine of Augustine instead of what the scriptures say and show.

Why don't you just believe what the scriptures say? The scriptures say God has made man upright, but that all men go astray and become lost. The scriptures also show that God does not punish little children who do not know between good and evil.

Solves all the problems instantly. Why? Because it is truth.

 

Nonsense, look at the scriptures.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Surely you recognize that the shepherd represents Jesus himself, Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd. Originally the shepherd had 100 sheep, only one was lost. And when he recovered this one lost sheep, Jesus said there is greater rejoicing over this one sinner who repents than 99 just persons who need no repentance.

Now, if everyone is born dead in sin, who could these 99 persons who need no repentance be? They couldn't be anybody if Original Sin is true.

But what if Original Sin is not true? What if everyone is born upright and is only lost when they knowingly and willingly sin against God, could there be 99 just persons who need no repentance? YES. Children who die at birth or at a very young age have not sinned and need no repentance.

The story is the same with the woman with 10 silver coins.

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Again, how many pieces of silver did the woman originally have? TEN. Only one was lost, the other nine were never lost.

What about the prodigal son, what did Jesus say?

Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

Was the prodigal son originally lost? NO, the scriptures say the father had two sons. When the prodigal repented, Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin, it could never be said we are alive again. You believe we are born dead, so how can we be alive AGAIN? Absurd.

But what about the other son, what did Jesus say?

Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The elder son claimed he had NEVER transgressed his father's commandments at any time. Did the father correct him? NO, the father confirmed what the elder son said, he called him "Son" and said, "thou art EVER with me, and ALL that I have is thine". Would God say this to a lost sinner? NO.

Who could this elder son who never sinned be? The only reasonable answer is that he is a person who died at birth or early childhood and was never lost. This person never sinned.

But note there is no celebration for the 99 sheep who are never lost, the 9 coins who were never lost, or the elder son who was never lost. The celebration is only for those who were lost and have repented.

Now, if Original Sin is true, a person would have to believe that Jesus was not aware of it, because Jesus clearly shows 99 sheep who are never lost and need no repentance, 9 silver pieces that are never lost, and the elder son who never sinned and was never lost.

You must believe that Jesus is absolutely unaware of Original Sin to tell three parables that absolutely disagree and contradict Original Sin.

I prefer to believe that Jesus knew exactly what he was saying, and that Augustine was in complete error.

Believe what you wish.

 

No I didn't mean to quote anyone.

I should have said they are "free from the sense of sin", that is they have no concept of sin or evil.

At very best they only have an understanding of NO! from their parents.

The Spirit of God alone knows when to convict them that their deeds are evil.

HankD

 

And that is the point, in Adam we all die, even innocent babies can die.

You at least admit that we inherit death from Adam.

But why? Because he sinned, not the innocent babe.

HankD

 

The Roman Catholics did not baptize babies to remove physical death, they baptized babies to remove Adam's sin. This is error. Babies are not born guilty of sin, or spiritually dead in sin.

Yes, it is true that all men physically die as a consequence of Adam's sin. God sent man out of the garden and barred him from the tree of life. In the New Jerusalem men will be allowed to eat of the tree of life and so will physically live forever.

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

Sin does not cause physical death, else there would be no need for God to bar man from the tree of life. No??

So, it seems man has always been dependent upon the tree of life to physically live forever. Sin did not cause death, being barred from the tree of life caused physical death.

Adam and Eve spiritually died the day they sinned, God did not lie.

God does not impute the sin of the father to the children.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

None of this is the issue. Because all men sin does not prove we are born with a sin nature, as Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve all sinned, yet none of them was created with a sin nature.

The scriptures do not say we inherit a sin nature from Adam. and they do not say we are born spiritually dead because of Adam, these are inventions of Augustine and the RCC.

I think I have provided scripture that clearly refutes Original Sin.

 

I have been a Baptist since I accepted Jesus as my Saviour in a Baptist church 48 years ago. I have always attended a Baptist church. I think you are the one who is confused. In one breath you say we are born dead in sin separated from God, in the next breath you contradict yourself and say God does not hold children guilty of sin. Make up your mind.

I understand the three parables Jesus told quite well, and they all absolutely refute Original Sin. I doubt anyone has ever really pointed this out to you, you simply believe whatever you have been told without putting any real thought into it.

Truth is, if you believe in OS you cannot possibly understand these three parables which are one. They don't make sense if OS is true.

I will believe Jesus, Jesus said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN. If we are born dead in sin (which is an oxymoron) as you believe, then it could never be said we are alive AGAIN.

You do understand what the word "again" means don't you?

Listen to scripture and not to men.

 

Oh, and if you believe the sheep, the silver piece, and the prodigal son is speaking of a believer, then you must believe a person can lose their salvation, as Jesus said the prodigal son was "dead" and "lost"

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

As you see, if the prodigal son (but the sheep and silver piece as well) are believers, then you do not believe in Eternal Security, you must believe that a believer can be lost and dead in sin after being saved.

But Hebrews 6 shows it impossible for a person to be renewed to repentance.

Nice try, but no gold ring for you.

 

Adam and Eve did not immediately die. The scripture literally says "dying you shall die" death is a process as well as a condition.

read on in Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.​

This passage is speaking of actual sin, sin committed with understanding of the law which works both ways, the father can not be held guilty of his sons sins neither the son can be held guilty under the law of Moses for his fathers infractions.​

Romans 5 deals with the concept of sin and death as man's spiritual condition.

KJV Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

You can't have it both ways, either innocent babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin or their own sin.

The first sin you or I committed and were awakened to the evil thereof, we loved the darkness and put our stamp of approval upon the evil we had done proving we were truly the sons of Adam.

The tree bore the the mature and ripe apple proving an apple tree all along even before the appearance of the fruit.

True, some come to the light - I've left that to the C vs A debate - it's beyond the scope of my understanding.

HankD

 

Jesus said he was both "dead" and "lost", terms never used of any believer.