Sin entered the world through _______?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by butterbloom, Jan 26, 2004.

  1. butterbloom

    butterbloom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2000
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam or Eve?

    And why?

    We are having a discussion about this and I have always been taught it's through ADAM and there is a reason why it's not EVE, even though she inititated the act of eating the fruit.

    Please tell help explain this.

    Thank you.
     
  2. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam. He and Eve got the command to reign over the earth and subdue it. Eve disobeyed God and sinned. But Adam was still in perfect fellowship with God and mankind in general was not sold under sin. But he sinned too and so the two first men fell and mankind with them. Adam was not deceived... he knew what he did (1. Tim. 2:14).

    Just my two cents, and here are God´s grands:

    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1. Corinthians 15:22)
    "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14)

    God bless.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because Adam is the federal head, not Eve (Rom 5:12-19).
     
  4. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Butterbloom (now THAT is an interesting web name!)

    It is always best to go back to Bible, of course. But I think there may be more to it than what these gentlemen have mentioned. Paul clearly tells us Eve was deceived (1 Timothy 2:14).

    And we find ourselves, hopefully, asking "Why was she deceived?"

    One is most easily deceived by someone you have learned to trust.

    Take a look at Ezekiel 28. In it, Ezekiel is being used as a mouthpiece by God, in prophecy to the King of Tyre. But in verse 11, someone else becomes involved. Whether the King of Tyre was demonically inhabited, I don't know, but the clear evidence here is that God, through Ezekiel, was addressing Satan himself, via the King of Tyre. Look at these verses, starting the verse 12b

    You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    every precious stone adorned you:
    ruby, topaz, and emerald,
    chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
    sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [note that these identifications of precious and semi-precious stones are different in different translations].
    Your settings and mountings were madeof gold;
    on the day you were created they were prepared.
    YOU WERE ANOINTED AS A GUARDIAN CHERUB,
    FOR SO I ORDAINED YOU.
    You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.
    You were blameless in your ways from teh day you were created till wickedness was found in you.


    This is NOT the King of Tyre!
    This was a being created perfect is wisdom and beauty, who was in Eden and was guardian cherub. If you keep reading in the passage, you cannot help but understand that this is Satan being spoken to.

    I would suggest that Eve knew him and trusted him. He was the guardian cherub there, no matter what form he took. He was anointed guardian cherub before he fell into sin and rebelled against God in his pride and ambition.

    So when he lured Eve into following him, as evidently a third of the angels had, Eve trusted him and obeyed his suggestion to think for herself over and above what she knew God's command was.

    This is still, by the way, the only temptation the devil has ever had to use with any of us! He questions God's Word and then tells us to 'think for ourselves' in opposition to it. (I am not saying that thinking for ourselves is a bad thing; only when it is in clear opposition to God's word is it wrong per se!).

    So Eve was deceived.

    Then Paul tells us Adam was not deceived.

    Again we would have to ask why.

    He was the original human creation, at least by a few hours. God had given him Eve as someone like him. God had also spoken directly to Adam concerning the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil. Did God speak directly to Eve? We don't know. Perhaps Adam told her instead. Whatever happened, we know that Adam got his direction directly from God. And so we are told Adam was NOT deceived.

    So why did Adam sin?

    Did he love Eve so much that he could not bear to be without her?
    Did he think he could somehow save Eve?

    We just don't know the reason. We know he was not deceived.

    The clear implication by Paul, then, in line with the rest of Scripture, is that God does not hold accountable the person who is deceived (even though the consequences are still there to be endured), in the same way He holds the deceiver accountable, or the one who sins intentionally.

    I hope that helps a bit. Addresses directly to Satan by God in this area can be found both in that section of Ezekiel and in Isaiah 14:12-15 in particular. If you take a look at those two passages in those two books, by the way, you will find some very interesting parallels between Satan's "I will"'s in Isaiah and God's responses in Ezekiel.
     
  5. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe it was Adam's sin solely because Eve was beguiled by the serpent and Adam willfully sinned. God "winked" at sin for a season, but then the excuse for sin diminished to nothing, that denotes an accountability for sin, which Adam willfully and knwoingly sinned.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a couple of problems with this whole deceit idea.

    1) It is not stated in Scripture. Scripture seems to indicate that the reason Adam is charged with the first sin is the headship principle found in Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15 (the first Adam/second Adam idea). Scripture does not even include Eve in that because Eve was not the head.

    2) Eve is not excused or "winked at" as QS put it. In fact, Eve paid a high price for all women, yet she will be saved through childbearing.

    The principle of imputation of sin is paramount in Rom 5 and indicates that Adam is the federal head just as Christ is the federal head. I would be careful with the "deceit idea" since I am dubious about scriptural or theological support for it.

    Helen, did you find this idea somewhere?? I would be curious if someone has defended it at length that I might look into it. I have never heard of it until you mentioned it and I wonder why no one seems to be mentioning it. I would be interested in finding someone who defends it at length to consider it.
     
  7. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    BEGUI'LED, pp. Deluded; imposed on; misled by craft; eluded by stratagem; passed pleasingly.

    larry, I didn't say Eve's sin was winked at or anything of the like. Adam is the "federal" head as you say, Eve, the woman being the weaker vessel is and was easily deceived. Adam willfully and knowingly disobeyed God. Also if you will note, Eve never was told anything by the LORD, only Adam. That is the case until sin entered the garden, then God came calling to Adam; he sinned again by not answering God the first time.

    So the passage:Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: this man is deduced easily as Adam.

    Are we both saying the same thing again and just neither one realizes it?
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your statement God "winked" at sin for a season, but then the excuse for sin diminished to nothing, that denotes an accountability for sin, which Adam willfully and knwoingly sinned led me to believe that you were saying God winked at sin until Adam willfully and knowingly sinned. If I misunderstood, then I apologize.

    But the question then comes, what do you do with Eve's sin. Was it not sin? Scripture accords it at sin.

    I have seen this argument before and I am unconvinced by it. In any event, Eve knew what God said (cf. 3:1-3) and therefore had no excuse for disobedience. The deceit of Satan was not in the realm of leading Eve to believe that she would not be sinning. THe deceit was 1) that God's command was not true (you shall not surely die) and 2) that God was not good (he just doesn't want you to be like him). So Eve was not deceived into thinking she wasn't sinning. She was deceived into believing that God was not telling the truth.

    I would say no, but I am not sure what you are saying :D ... so I can't answer for sure. I do know what I am saying, though perhaps no one else does ...
     
  9. Precepts

    Precepts
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2003
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't be so hard on yourself :D

    Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

    Larry, I believe Eve was the only one who told God the truth.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ

    Here we do have that evidence she was beguiled.

    1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    Here is where I believe Eve really wasn't sure of her consequence of sin.

    Though sin was before the creation of Adam and Eve, as Helen was referring to, sin actually never reigned unto the last Adam/Christ until Adam, the first Adam sinned. Sin on earth began with Adam, but sin in heaven began with Lucifer/king of Tyre.

    My idea isn't nearly as loaded as Helen's, but I think it is equally the same in the respect that sin actually began with Lucifer. It was the sin of pride.

    Eve's "sin", we know she was in the transgression, was her desire to become something she was not, also taking the authoritve role in her relationship with Adam. (Uh, Oh, here comes the ERA/ W'libbers)

    Do women get puffed up in pride?
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that Eve was deceived. But I think the question is What was the nature of the deception??? I don't think she was deceived about sin. She was deceived about God telling her the truth. She knew she was sinning; she simply believed that God was the one lying to her.

    She did admit it faster than Adam, but by the time she was asked, she knew Adam was busted. But even then, she tried to blame Satan for it.

    I guess I just remain unconvinced that this has anything to do with Adam being the cause of sin and death for his posterity ... [​IMG]
     
  11. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Larry, as you know and admit, Eve was deceived. Being the curious sort, I just wondered why. That question stayed at the back of my brain for a long time until I really read that material in Ezekiel closely. Then it sort of hit hard: if Satan was the guardian cherub (there goes the gap theory!), then, since Adam and Eve are also mentioned as walking with God, she may well have known the guardian cherub -- Lucifer -- the light-bearer.

    If she was not aware of him then my idea is no good. But if she was aware of him, then it makes the deception easier to understand.

    I don't know of anywhere you can read more about it. It is something that occurred to me from Scripture. I asked Barry about it and we did a study on it ourselves and it seems to hold up -- at least it does not contradict any Scripture we are aware of.

    That doesn't mean we're right! It just means that it's a possibility.

    I mean, when I think about it, I sure as shootin' wouldn't believe any snake that started talking. Actually, I'd probably be in a dead faint! And I'm already a sinner; she wasn't.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not sure how Ezekiel helps you. I don't think that shows anything about what Eve knew. But if she knew Satan, then there is all the more to doubt your suggestion since knowing SAtan and who he was would have lessened her deception. She would have known he was a liar.

    God does hold people accountable even when they are deceieved. REmember the prophet whom God told to go straight home and not turn back. He ran into someone who told him to come back with him. He initially refused and when the guy assured him he was from God, the prophet turned back with him and disobeyed God. Even though he was deceived, it cost him his life.

    So the deception idea doesn't work real well, regardless of what Eve knew.

    Keep in mind as well that the serpent was not a snake as we know it. Crawling on his belly was a part of the curse. Some have suggested (without evidence) that the animal Satan took control of may have been teh animal most compatible with man in all the garden. There is no reason to doubt that. In any event, if Eve knew Satan, it would not have been as the serpent. He took control of that animal to do his deeds.

    But again, remember the content of her deception. She knew she was disobeying God. She deliberately disobeyed God. The deception was that God was not telling her the truth and that God was trying to keep her from being like him. She chose to believe Satan over God, knowing that she would be disobeying God when she did.
     
  13. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    What about the idea that everyone was identified with the name of their father and not the mother therefore when Paul talks about the imputation of sin he, as would be the normal procedure, identified it with the father, Adam. Always aware of the fact that Eve was responsible for her sin as the curses would indicate in Genesis 3
     
  14. Walls

    Walls
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    802
    Likes Received:
    0
    My two cents worth. Yes, Eve was decieved but why?

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    If you notice in this verse she gave the fruit to Adam, it does say she went to him or had to find him.

    Is it possible that Adam was there during the whole conversation between the serpent and Eve? If Adam was in fact there, then He is responsible for the sin. He could have been the man, he could have stood up to the serpent and said "get thee behind me" or some such thing!

    If Adam wasn't there, then how is it that Eve wasn't with Adam. Wasn't she supposed to be his helpmeet, right there beside him? How is it possible that she was decieved? Did she wonder away from her rightful place and why did Adam allow her to go?

    I think it is a very good lesson for both men and women!
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think this is reading way too much into the context. There is no need to oversearch for something.

    "Her rightful place" does not mean that she always has to be in arms' reach of her husband. Again, reading way too much into a simple story.

    She was deceived because she chose to believe the serpent more than God. It is that simple.
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Adam. First, we need to ask what the sin of Adam is. God did not make Adam and Eve perfect. He intended them, even in the Garden, to grow with each other, and grow with the Lord.

    When Eve was confronted by Satan, she made a mistake by being trusting. Adam, too, made the mistake of trusting. But were these sins in and of themselves? Perhaps, perhaps not. The crux of the story lies with what happens next: God comes to them and asks what happenned. And what does Adam do? He passes the buck, and says "hey, it wasn't my fault, it was your fault, because yougave me the woman, and she made me eat the apple". Adam could very well taken the responsibility and said "I disobeyed you, forgive me". But Adam did not. Adam chose to say he was blamemess.

    The sin of Adam was not just eating the fruit. It was eating the fruit and not taking responsibility when confronted by God.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    YOu have to be kidding John. This is so patently unbiblical it should not even be being said, much less on a christian website. Everything God created was perfect including ADam and Eve. That is clear from Scripture. Adam only had one probationary test. It did not involve taking responsbility for disobeying God.

    Every now and then something so absurd comes along that you know it just can't be serious. This is one of those times ...
     
  18. foundthepath

    foundthepath
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Could the Archangel have become Satan because he temped Eve? Could this be what first caused the problems beween the Archangel and God?
     
  19. Walls

    Walls
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    802
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry, if you notice in vs 6 it says her husband with her. To me that means Adam was there when she was being tempted.

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves
    aprons.

    But then you will notice in vs 7 that their eyes were opened together. Why didn't God open Eve's eyes before she gave to her husband? Isn't it because the man is accountable to God first then the woman?
     
  20. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you presume that making a mistake is a sin, then I'd agree with you. But making mistakes is not sin. It can lead to sin, but it is not sin in and of itself. When I said God did not create Adam and Eve perfect, I was referring to the notion that God did not create Adam and Eve without a capacity to learn and grow. Making mistakes is part of learning and growth. This does not equate to imperfection in God's eyes. I think that what I said is biblicaly plausable. God did not want then, and he does not want now, humans who are simply puppets.
     

Share This Page

Loading...