SIN IS NO CAUSE OF REPROBATION - John Bunyan

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    If, as argued in another thread, foreknowledge = foreordination, does not a foreknowledge of damnation equal a predestination to damnation - what the old Calvinists called "reprobation"?

    Will the Calvinists here be consistent and admit that their philosophy implicitly teaches that our merciful, kind, just, loving and faithful Creator created billions of human beings with the pre-calculated intention of damning them to everlasting torment with no possibility or bona fide offer of salvation?

    Such a thing hardly seems characteristic of God's dealing with man, to whom He sent His Son to bid the weary and heavy laden to "come unto me." But we cannot deny the justice of it, if we approach the subject with the understanding that God's decree to damn the wicked is based on their sin and voluntary rebellion against Him.

    And we cannot deny that is exactly what He did in respect of the wicked angels to whom no offer of redemption is given. And thus we freely confess that our God, foreseeing our lost and undone condition, did most freely and of His mere grace choose to have mercy on us, without any regard for any good or evil within us, for we were destitute of good and consumed with evil.

    Thus it is truly written that He hath chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, according to the riches of His grace and the good pleasure of His will.

    But when we approach the subject of reprobation from the context of Calvinism, which teaches (whether explicitly or implicitly) that God uncondtionally hated and predestinated certain men to eternal damnation while still in their mother's womb, having done neither good nor evil, much less having any knowledge thereof, the whole idea becomes a slander and insult, not only to the mercy, but to the holy character and justice of God.

    As vile as this slander on God is, the Calvinists of old - which is to say the bona fide and consistent ones - published it, as did the men of Sodom their filthy fornications, with impunity and with fear of neither God nor man. Take, for example, this extract from Bunyan's tract "Reprobation Asserted":

    "Reprobation is before the person cometh into the world or hath done good or evil; this is evident by that of Paul to the Romans: 'For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand, it was said unto Rebecca, The eleder shall serve the younger.' Here you find twain in their mother's womb, and both receiving their destiny, not only before they had done good or evil, but before they were in a capacity to do it, they being yet unborn - their destiny, I say, the one unto, the other not unto, the blessing of eternal life; the one chosen, the other refused; the one elect, the other reprobate" (chapter three).

    And if that were not clear enough, this vile blasphemer of God adds,

    "it be most true that sin is no cause of reprobation" (chapter 4).

    No, my friend, Bunyan was too honest of a man to speak in watered down terms of God merely "passing by" the reprobate and leaving them to the just recompense of their sins. He flatly states (that which is but the honest and logical conclusion of the Calvinist heresy),

    "it be most true that sin is no cause of reprobation."

    Can I get an "Amen" from the loyal opposition?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. whetstone

    whetstone
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    There is a command to repent for sins. This command is heard by the non-elect- and many of them. Take a poll of the unsaved population of America and see how many of them have heard of John 3:16.

    The non-elect are responsible for their rejection of Christ because it was their sins that blinded and darkened their hearts to the truth.

    If I walked into a jail and set 10 prisoners free, the other prisoners might get indignant- "Why didn't he set us free?" but it was they who put themselves where they are.

    When you strain at the concept of reprobation- you forget that man willfully sins and willfully rejects God. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are- and who God elects to save. Each man is still responsible for his own sins and his own fallen state.
     
  3. 2BHizown

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    True, sin is no cause for reprobation! People are damned for rejecting Christ and remaining in their sin! Reprobation is the term for determining in eternity past that some would be of the elect and others would be reprobated! Do you object to this plan of God, our most holy sovereign Lord of all the earth? Remember, we're little mud balls and He is the potter! As so stated in Romans 9, Who are you to reply against God? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
    Most every problem of understanding goes back to either the depravity of man or the sovereignty of God. Men read in the bible what they want to see, not what is actually there as so stated!! Look at it closely, written with the finger of God!!
     
  4. Brother James

    Brother James
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    From the 1689 confession:

    6. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
    ( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )
     
  5. 4study

    4study
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    But I thought one of the premises of Calvanism was that humans sin due to "instinct" or "nature". In other words, they are like animals, just following they're intrinsic desires. So they do not choose to sin. Why does God punish those who have no choice? Sounds very unfair.
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    LOL!

    I didn't think you guys would get on Mr. Bunyan's bandwagon but I don't see how you can consistently argue with him. If election cannot be conditioned on faith, how can reprobation be conditioned on sin (or the sin of unbelief as 2BHizown argues).

    In principle, I'm with Mr. Bunyan on this one, if particular and unconditional election was made from eternity past, then particular and unconditional reprobration was equally so and it thus follows,

    "SIN IS NO CAUSE OF REPROBATION."

    2BHizown, perhaps you'd like to explain to me in what sense of the term poor little Esau in Rebecah's womb (having done neither good nor evil) "rejected Christ" and was thus reprobated by God. It is amazing how much "Calvinists" start sounding like "Arminians" when it comes to this dreadful, but inevitable, subject of eternal reprobation.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
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    Because of original sin we are spiritually DEAD, unable to choose or ask for help, until God in His great mercy touches our heart and calls us to Himself! We are totally unable to choose! There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good; no, not one. Rom 3:10-13
    But then comes the good part in Eph 2:1-4 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

    Actually our belief and even our faith are gifts from Him who loved us and elected us!!
    God is so good!!
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    2BHizown,

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to me in what sense of the term poor little Esau in Rebecah's womb (having done neither good nor evil) "rejected Christ" and was thus reprobated by God.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
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    There are so many who receive the testimony of God only so far as they can satisfactorily account for all the reasons and grounds of His conduct, which means they will accept nothing but that which can be measured in the petty scales of their own limited capacities.(quote,AW Pink, The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation, pg 81) He also explains that obviously if some are elected to salvation then some are not. Election indicates choice, as in some are chosen, some are not!! If God had willed their salvation would He not have vouchsafed them the means of salvation?

    Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibion; all the other they took in battle. For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses. (Josh.11:18-20)
    Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for Himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil!
    Also, regarding Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that MY name might be declard throughout all the earth! Rom 9:17
    When God said in Matt 7:23 "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I never knew you", note that He said He NEVER knew you, meaning they had never been known by God.

    If one has a hunger and thirst for God that is a good sign that God is drawing them to Himself and they must obey that summons!
    Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God!! Romans 11:22
    In this book The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink he does a great job of explaining the significance of God's sovereignty in all areas of creation, salvation, reprobation, prayer, evangelism and well substantiates it all with scripture!
    Blessings!
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
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    Please supply references where being "dead in sin" means being unable to choose or ask for help. I won't be holding my breath.
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    2BHizown,

    Now that you have extolled the virtues of Authur Pink, will you explain how Esau could be rejected for rejecting Christ either when he did not exist or when he was in his mother's womb having done, according to God's word, neither good nor evil.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. 4study

    4study
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    2BHizown,

    But whetstone had this to say,

    So do we sin by instinct or by choice? Again, it seems unfair that God would punish those who have no choice.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Sounds to me like you don't understand Particular Redemption. [​IMG]
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God." Do you ask your enemies to help you? No. You hate them. Just as the sinner hates God. And, of course, the fallen man not only doesn't ask his enemy, God, for help, he doesn't even believe he needs help! He is convinced he is okay without God.

    That flushing noise you just heard was your theory going down the tubes. [​IMG]
     
  15. 4study

    4study
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    TCassidy,

    You might be surprised.
     
  16. 4study

    4study
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    TCassidy,

    So lets just say it, "Humans are enemies with God by birth, not by choice". Again, sounds very unfair for God to punish those who have no choice in the matter.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog
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    Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God." Do you ask your enemies to help you? No. You hate them. Just as the sinner hates God. And, of course, the fallen man not only doesn't ask his enemy, God, for help, he doesn't even believe he needs help! He is convinced he is okay without God.

    That flushing noise you just heard was your theory going down the tubes. [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
    Who is doing the "setting"? Incurs the ability to set, no? Anything that has a calvinistic spin is what needs to be flushed. :D
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Uh, did you miss the point that Romans 8 is written to believers? Their minds have already been set on Christ.
     
  19. Brother James

    Brother James
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    So lets just say it, "Humans are enemies with God by birth, not by choice". Again, sounds very unfair for God to punish those who have no choice in the matter. </font>[/QUOTE]Humans are born in sin. If GOD was fair we would all be in hell.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Which, of course, has nothing to do with the point. [​IMG]
     

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