Sin Unto Death

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by saturneptune, Jan 20, 2008.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    Lately, on several vice threads, the sin unto death has been mentioned. It would be good to get other's thoughts on this.

    Is the sin unto death in 1 John spiritual or physical?

    Is John speaking of a saved person when he says "brother?"

    Is sinning unto death one time or habitual?

    Where are the list of sins that are sins unto death?

    Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

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    Actually, according to Paul, there was only 'a sin unto death'... only one. 'a' is singular, not plural.

    We know the spiritual death is caused by rejection of the Lord and His shed blood. This rejection is evidenced by many sins (see Gal. 5, 1 Cor. 6, and Rev. 21).

    What is the sin unto death? I do not believe it is spiritual for this reason, it is already disclosed in the Word of God that rejection of Christ will guarantee the second death.

    So, it must be physical. Paul did not disclose what it was though. 'There is a sin unto death, I dare not say what it is'.
     
  3. JerryL

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    Sounds good.
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    Well, if it is physical then why?

    1. Is it to keep a Christian from committing the sin again and again. If so, why would the death save him from the second death, being he still has the sin unto death against him, for he did not repent of it, not could he repent of it for the Lord said "not to even pray for him" and to renew him unto repentance again is impossible. So, you would have to believe in a fall from Grace to believe it is physical.

    2. If it is Spiritual, then it could mean any sin that is not repented of, for it would be the sin that brought the second death if not repented of. But if it is a Christian that commits a sin unto death, then again you would have to believe in a fall.

    3. If the only purpose of the scripture is only telling us how impossible it is for a Christian to commit a "sin unto death", then it would make sense to me. "if it were possible for a someone who has tasted of the good fruits of the Lord, and if he were to fall, to renew him unto repentance again is impossible". IMO

    1Cr 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    1Cr 6:10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


    1Cr 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (Don't do those things anymore, not a ticket to do them)

    You are assuming that a Christian can actually commit a "sin unto death", when the scripture starts off with "if it were possible", in other words it is not possible.
    BBob,
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Jan 20, 2008
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  5. standingfirminChrist

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    Not sure why, Bob.

    But it cannot be spiritual, for John speaks of the sin unto death as being singular and not plural.

    1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    Things Hard to be Understood
    1Jo. 5:16,17
    “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.” – 1Jo 5:16-17

    The Bible teaches that God disciplines His children, and those who are not disciplined are not His (Heb 12:5-8). The goal of His discipline is that “we might be partakers of his holiness” (Heb 12:10). If the believer refuses to respond to God’s discipline and persists in his sin, God will take his life. This happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. There were some at Corinth who had died because of their sin (1Co 11:30-32).

    The question arises, What is the sin unto death? Under the Mosaic law, there were many crimes which required the death penalty. The Law of Moses called for capital punishment in the case of murder (Le 24:17; De 19:11-13), idolatry (Le 20:2; De 17:2-7), witchcraft (Le 20:27), adultery (Le 20:10; De 22:21-22), homosexuality (Le 20:13), bestiality (Le 20:15-16), rape (De 22:25-27), incest (Le 20:17), blasphemy (Le 24:11-16,23), presumption (De 17:12-13), kidnapping (De 24:7), and rebellion against parents (Le 20:9).

    I do not know of any New Testament instructions, though, which would enable us to determine exactly if a sin is a sin unto death. The merciful Lord has promised, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1Jo 1:9). Apparently this is something which the Holy Spirit will reveal as the necessity arises. Compare Jer 7:16; 11:14; 14:11 and Jer 15:1. Our part is to pray diligently for those who are sinning, trusting in the Lord to do His perfect will in their lives. Even though God told Moses not to pray for rebellious Israel, he persevered anyway, and God answered the intercessor’s prayer (Ex 32:10-14).

    Some have connected the “sin unto death” with the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, for which there is no forgiveness (Mt 12:31-32). It is true that the term “brother” does not always mean a brother in Christ. It can also refer to a brother in the sense of our common humanity with our fellow man (compare 1Pe 5:9). In this sense, the passage in 1Jo 5:16-17 would tell us that it is improper to ask life for those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. This does not make good sense, though. Obviously those who reject Christ and therefore blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will be judged if they persist in this condition, but the Bible elsewhere instructs us to pray for all men because Christ died for all and God would have all men to be saved (1Ti 2:1-6).
     
    #5 standingfirminChrist, Jan 20, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008
  6. JerryL

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    Edit: Read the post wrong
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    If what you say is true, then you have to believe in a fall. I still say because it starts off with "if it were possible", that it is telling us that it is impossible.

    BBob,
     
  8. skypair

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    I'll give you the sum of what I know at this point:

    1) The sin unto death is physical -- something as simple as smoking. Believers and unbelievers are equally vulnerable but not equally empowered to escape them. If you don't/can't quit, it's gonna get you and we ought not pray thinking that God will save your life through it because He won't answer that prayer. It was His design to begin with that unrepented of sin be judged in this life. So anything that is bad for you, dangerous, obviouis sin, etc. is in view (some lead to more delayed judgment than others, i.e. gluttony).

    2) Sin unto death was part of the reason why "many are sick and some sleep" from taking communion unworthily not observing the body. Here's how that works: we are supposed to wash one another's feet in order to be worthy of communion as Jesus did (scripture says "wait on one another"). This means that we are to forgive one another their sin, many of which they may not know about. Did you get that? The kind of sin that David called "secret faults/sins" (Psa 19:12, 90:8). In this view, we ought to broach the issue of sins others may not be aware of so that they can deal with them before God does (more next).

    Of course, there are those blatant, willful sins that we must discipline as a church as well hoping to recover the sinner to communion.

    3) God, according to scripture/ARogers, deals with sin progressively in 4 steps: a) alerting your conscience, b) sending others to notice and warn you, c) you suffer loss on account of the sin (health, wealth, honor), and d) death ("sin unto death").

    There's only 2 remedies (I can think of right now anyway): a) Confession -- we agree with God about that sin and wait and watch and prepare for His deliverance (we are not always capable of the repentance stage immediately, re: dependency habits like smoking). I believe God holds judgment in abeyance and helps us gather strength if we will consistently confess our sin. b) Repentance (2Cor 7:9-11) -- breaking free from the sin.

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Jan 20, 2008
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  9. Brother Bob

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    not true, these have tasted the of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.

    4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Think! if you remove the red bold, it would be saying what you say, that it could be physical. Ask yourselves why did God add the words "for it is impossible", they are there for a reason and if He wanted to say what you say it is, then He would not of used these words "for it is impossible". They are there to tell us that it is impossible for a Christian to commit such an act, or you believe falling from Grace, for there is no forgiveness of what they did, if it were possible for them to do it, because they cannot be renewed to repentance.

    Use your head for something other than to wear a hat on................:laugh: :laugh:

    BBob,
     
    #9 Brother Bob, Jan 20, 2008
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  10. JustChristian

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    I think the sin unto death is not loving our neighbor. As these verses from 1 John say this is the sme as not loving God. The result of not loving God is spiritual death.

    1Jo 4:8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    1Jo 4:16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    1Jo 4:17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
    1Jo 4:20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.


    Notice that 1Jo4:17 says that if our love is made perfect then we can have boldness in the Judgment Day. I interpret that to mean we will have nothing to fear because we are saved.
     
  11. TCGreek

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    1. I consider this a spiritual sin.

    2. I see no reason not to think of a saved person.

    3. Now things are getting really interesting. "There's a sin leading to death." This just describes a state of being, but from the first few lines, I would conclude that he is speaking of habitual sin.

    4. Is there a list?
     
  12. skypair

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    I realize right off the bat that what you offer is a confusing passage for some (apparently you included) but consider: First off, I don't see sin unto death even mentioned so perhaps you should have highlighted what you are responding to.

    Second: Where would they "renew themselves to repentance? Where would they put Christ to an open shame? In the PHYSICAL world, right?

    This is talking about apostate believers for whom, try though we might, we cannot lay again the foundation of repentance in order to bring them back from their apostacy. We see this all the time here -- people grow enamoured of some theology or other and you can't bring them back to the biblical gospel of their salvation (the way they came in) for nothing!

    So what happens to them? They become as "briars" (6:8) -- even pastors are told not to entertain their "doubtful disputations" and their "profane and vain babblings." Their end is to be 'nigh unto cursing' (yeah, there is that impulse sometimes) and 'burned' (perhaps "burned out" in their own frenzy) -- a VERY temporal, NOW judgments, BTW.

    And the "impossible" proposition is that they must be "saved again." No. They may need to renounce their former sin but they were NEVER unsaved -- only misguided.

    Kinda childish remark don't you think?

    skypair
     
    #12 skypair, Jan 21, 2008
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  13. Brother Bob

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    Not for you its not..........:) I happen to be kidding with Sfic and had nothing to do with you whatsoever.

    Anyway, whoever you lend your member you are the servant. If you lend your member to sin, you are the servant of the devil.

    I didn't put the words "impossible to renew them to repentance again", God did. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him. The scripture speaks for itself: If they were partakers of the Holy Ghost and were to fall, they would put God to an open shame. That is why, I believe the scripture is telling us how impossible it is to fall. But I think you believe its physical which makes no sense at all, for we are already under the appointment of physical death and can't escape it, no matter what we do, put God to an open shame or not.

    Sin unto death? If they can never receive repentance then nothing left, but death. Your argument is with God and the scripture, not me!!! Or maybe you believe the scripture of "impossible" was put in to take up space?

    Perhaps you can show me scripture for "temperal"?

    Also, its in the Physical world that we sin and if we never get forgiveness, we go to HELL! Why do you think the whole message of God is??

    BBob,
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Jan 21, 2008
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  14. skypair

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    The text says "repentance AGAIN" Bob. Did you see that?

    Not "impossible to bring them to repentance" -- "repentance again."

    I suppose that about "blows" the rest of your remarks out the window, eh?

    It is impossible to fall out of salvation, yes. It is not impossible to fall out of fellowship with either the Holy Spirit or with fellow Christians in this life.

    Here's the sense of that, Bob -- we don't live as long as we should on account of sin unto death. My mom is a prime example (GRHS) -- emphesema. But it is like the proverb that says not to take coals to your breast and expect not get burned. There are very REAL consequences for sin in this life whether you believe or not.

    This is an obvious case of you not distingushing between JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION. We are JUSTIFIED forever in Christ. Not one sin we commit will ever keep us out of heaven.

    But we can retard our SANCTIFICATION in this life through sin. Do you believe that? And you can, even being a believer, sin unto death physical death via the 4 "steps" ARogers showed which I listed above. You can even be "apostate" and be of no use to God.

    skypair
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    This is what they fell from, if they fell. I challenge you to show me where it means to fall from fellowship with the brethren??

    6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


    BBob, .............
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Jan 21, 2008
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  16. skypair

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    BBob,

    Because it is impossible to be saved twice, right? Unless you are Jimmy Carter, your repentance is not "to crucify Christ afresh" but of repentance from sin like the adulterer in Corinth did. He quit sinning and was received back into the fellowship.

    I would then remind you of John Mark when he split with Paul. I would tell you of Hymenaeus who was an apostate, 1Tim 1:19-20, who "put away" his "faith and good conscience" in precisely the manner Paul is speaking of here -- he could not bring HIM back.

    God keeps you in the hereafter -- He does not "guarantee" anything in this life unless you continue to grow, 2Pet 1:9. If you don't grow, you will be blinded, not see far off, and forget that you are saved!!!

    1) She KNEW God sent it, Bob! She had quit but not in time.

    2) Like I just said, she repented. And before that, she confessed a long time. Perhaps 10 years before her death, I paid for a treatment that chemically was supposed to make her desire/need for nicotine go away. On the way flying back to Indy, she bought a pack of "cigs"in Atlanta airport. :tear: It's called HABIT, Bob. Not all saints are as strong as you seem to think you are.

    3) Of course, Adam's "kin" all die. Hers was unnecessary. And then there's this -- some would tell us "It is God's will" (seems to be your approach). NOT! She knew God's will was to quit and live! You don't smoke 45 years and, once converted, think that the laws of nature are suspended for you. In fact, you "examine yourself." Do you know that at the same time she smoked, I smoked?! that the same day she was saved, I was saved?! I didn't have the strength right then either!! God had to show me a HUGE loss (career) before I COULD repent rather than just confess!

    But I am getting the impression that you don't understand any this, do you, Bob? You live in the "pristine" world of -- well, your avatar says it all, no? You may need to learn how to help real people with real scriptures, Bob (no offense but clergy do seem to be "out of touch" sometimes). Do you turn the "failures" away with "You don't have enough faith" or "You are not saved?"

    This is a critical issue of sanctification, Bob. Don't belittle the crises that humans experience -- even unto death!

    skypair
     
    #16 skypair, Jan 21, 2008
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  17. Brother Bob

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    Sorry about you mom Sky, I do not believe God sent it on her. When Adam sinned, all types of death came upon the earth. Cancer, Heart desease, Lung desease, killing, murder, etc. God did not make your mom pick up cigarettes nor did he cause her to die. If she was saved, the angels carried her home when she died.

    You seem to believe in a "weak" God, who is not able to keep that which He saves.

    My avatar, could you please tell me what is wrong with it?

    You make remarks of my avatar and me. I wonder very much, do you stand over people as they are dying and do you tell them its because of their sins. I do not believe we die the physical death because of our sins, but that the second death is pronounced upon us. I believe we die because Adam sinned. Where have you gone wrong Sky?

    You think because of looking at my avatar you can judge me as a very strict man, who condemns others at will. I got news for you Sky. You should of been where I preached yesterday, then you would of known better.

    BBob,
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Jan 21, 2008
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  18. skypair

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    This is getting REAL personal, Bob. You are accusing me of stuff you KNOW I don't believe!

    ABSOLUTELY, my mom included!! The flesh availeth nothing!

    NOR DO I! What are you accusing me of, Bob??? It is YOU that changed the meaning of Heb 6, NOT ME!! Do you believe there is apostacy in the church? Do you see any here at BB?? Heaven's sake! You have "screwed this passage around" where you got it on "backwards!" We're on the same side, remember?

    skypair
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    I just think you are misreading the passage of what they fell from. No where does it say, nor can you prove they only lost fellowship with the brethren.

    BBob,
     
  20. skypair

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    I know you are. I know your heart. God is Truth and, in my understanding, there is a limit to His mercy regarding His "law"/truth. Dr Rogers used to say (his analogy is to a son that won't quit fighting with others), "At last, His only punishment is to bring us home." I believe that. How many people do you know who were "called home early?"

    Nothing wrong. I respect and covet your position as a Christian leader. My nephew -- same. But sadly, in some respects, you are 'holy' ---- separated. In many cases lately, I have come to view "church" as a "government" with a 10% "tax" to support a big beaurocracy whose "projects" are not "on my heart/spirit." I'm in a new church now with new missions, etc. I am praying that it will be as it once was. I covet your prayers too.

    Look at you! "Where have I gone wrong?"

    No, I would warn people long before they are on their deathbed of the 'sin unto death!' And when I did speak to a friend dying of breast cancer, I did not "rub it in" that she hadn't had an X-ray in 5 years. Friend, I spoke to her about what death and heaven are like. That it is her "graduation" -- her "prison break" -- her short struggle for an eternity of joy!

    Where have YOU gone wrong?

    skypair

    BBob,[/QUOTE]
     

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