"sin" who is the originator?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by g'day mate, Jan 28, 2003.

  1. g'day mate

    g'day mate
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    Please this is not a trick question,if anybody was to ask me this question two weeks ago I would have said Eve Adam come Saturn that line of thought.But a friend of mine John D.suggested that I read Pro 16:4 The Lord has made everything for his purpose, even the sinner for the day of evil. Please what does this mean? I am thinking it could mean God made the man but not the sin in the man.Am a little confused please help.
    John :confused:
     
  2. Lorelei

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    The NIV reads a bit differently:

    I wondered why they translated it as works rather than made, so I went to the interlinear and found this word has been translated as work or workers a lot more than made. Though I am not an expert on the original languages, I also know what the rest of the Bible teaches and one verse can not contradict that. God didn't make some to be wicked, rather he wants none to perish.

    I will have to study this more and will be interested in what some others have to say.

    ~Lorelei
     
  3. Alliswell

    Alliswell
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    There is no doubt that satan is the originator of sin, but God gave man the dominion over this earth, so satan has always had to work as a seducer, a deceiver, a liar, a murderer, a blasphemer against holy God, and a destroyer, but always in the background.

    Sometimes man knowingly cooperates with him against God's plans, but sometimes he uses people like the great man of God, Simon Peter, who thought he was being sympathetic to his beloved Lord when he objected to his coming death, but Jesus said, "Get thee behind Me, satan!"

    There are two passages in the Old Testament where the Lord is reprimanding a wicked king, and soon the Lord begins speaking to satan himsef, the evil spirit who has the king doing his bidding.

    One passage is Ezekiel 28, where the evil king of Tyre has declared himself to be God, a longtime ambition of Satan.

    Ezekiel 28:12-15: NKJV
    (God speaking to the evil one himself):

    "You were the seal of perfection!
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

    You were in Eden, the garden of God,
    Every precious stone was your covering,
    The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
    The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
    Was prepared in you the day that you were CREATED

    You are the anointed cherub who covers.
    I established you!
    You were on the holy mountain of God,
    You walked back and forth
    In the midst of fiery stones.

    YOU WERE PERFECT IN YOUR WAYS
    FROM THE DAY YOU WERE CREATED
    TILL INIQUITY WAS FOUND IN YOU!"


    verse 17 "YOUR heart was lifted up because of YOUR beauty, YOU corrupted YOUR wisdom for the sake of YOUR splendor.

    Thus we see that this absolutely perfect personality that God created for a wonderful purpose, corrupted HIMSELF, because of EGO & SELF WILL

    Isaiah 14:12-15 is another example, only this time it is not the King of Tyre, but the King of Babylon.

    God is pronouncing judgement on this king and then begins speaking to Lucifer, himself.

    "How are you fallen from heaven
    O Lucifer, son of the morning!
    How are you cut down to the ground,
    You, who weakened the nations!
    For you have said in your heart:

    I WILL ascend into heaven!
    I WILL exalt MY throne ABOVE the stars of God!
    I WILL ALSO sit in the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north!
    I WILL acend above the heights of the clouds!
    I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH!

    Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
    To the lowest depths of the Pit.

    Here again we see the usurper. He still plans to outsmart his Creator and take over, even though he KNOWS that God has said that he won't get away with it. He WILL yet sit in the temple of God and declare that he is God!
    2 Thessalonians 2

    His armies will even try to shoot down the returning Victorious Lord when he returns with his saints as foretold in Revelation 19: 19-21 but the Lord Jesus will make a short work of him and his armies on that day!

    When satan thought 'I WILL'
    Sin began.
    When he SAID, 'I WILL' his fate was sealed.


    He will take as many down as can be deceived by him.

    In the tribulation, a great number that cannot be numbered, mentioned in Revelation 7:9, will be saved because God is going give him enough rope to hang himself.

    When he reigns openly and in his own name, Hitler's Germany will look like a Sunday School picnic by comparison, people will choose death over serving him, and the Lamb's book of life will become a very big book!

    Sure,the whole world will worship him! And those who, like Judas, want satan to win and hate God will be totally deceived and not able to turn back to the truth. But after satan's army kills the believers, how many will there be left?

    I know this is not a widespread belief, but I do not believe that the vast majority of God's highest creation, man, is going to hell!

    I do believe that God is not going to let satan win!

    They tell us that there are more people alive today than there ever have been in all the generations from Adam to now

    God intends GOOD results from everything He allows to happen! I believe that the whole reason that God will allow the great tribulation to happen, is to bring in this great harvest of souls![/b]

    Revelation 7:9 My favorite scripture!

    [ January 28, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]
     
  4. JIMNSC

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    Proverbs 16:4  ¶The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
    (KJV)

    To me it simply means that God made all things for His pleasure - even the wicked. Even though the wicked are His creation, He will not rescue them from the day of evil due to the life they have chosen.
     
  5. Alliswell

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    JMNSC, please forgive me, I am still all wrapped up in this subject, and I want this to sound friendly [​IMG] May I quote a a different viewpoint to your statement?

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them: "As I live", says the LORD GOD, "I have NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked TURN from his way and LIVE!

    "TURN YE, TURN YE from your evil ways, for why WILL you die, oh house of Israel?"


    God Bless [​IMG]

    Alliswell
     
  6. Me2

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    In Ezekial and Isaiah..both sets of passages were speaking about and to men....

    Evil, death and Sin didnt enter into the garden until Adam introduced it.

    The originator of Evil and Death is God the Creator.
    and Satan is not a free will creature..He's a tool of God that serves a specific purpose.
    He never fell from grace. He was from his inception created to destroy..along with the demons he "oversees".
    yet you seem to overlook WHO HIS BOSS IS....

    AND...
    Adam introduced the concept of sin into our material world.
    well, Eve made the chioce for him...he just went along for a free meal...

    Confused Now ?
     
  7. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    I would say Lucifer was the first sinner; since he rebelled against God out of pride...

    Sue
     
  8. g'day mate

    g'day mate
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    It is because I have some?? understanding of what God says about sin in the bible,this is the
    reason for my confusion.Prov 16.4 seems to be in conflict with the other parts of His Word.And yet I know this is not so.
    John
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Just because God permitted sin, does not mean that he created it.
     
  10. JamesJ

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    J. Vernon McGee says this about Prov. 16:4
    He doesn't answer the question at hand but may help to shed some light on it.

    The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil [Prov. 16:4]

    My friend, here is some strong medicine. This proverb is a pill that will send you on a trip, I mean a real mind-blowing trip. Jehovah hath made all things for Himself. Have you ever wondered why the ocean is salty, or why it has a tide? You may answer that it is according to certain laws of nature. But who made the laws? Why is the ocean salty? Because God wanted it that way! The Lord Jesus is the Creator, and He wanted it that way. Someone may say it is because there is salt in the land that has been filtered out by the water in the ocean. By the way, who put the salt in the land to begin with?
    I don’t care what you do with evolution or how far back you try to carry it, eventually you come to the place where somebody had to make something to get the whole thing started. You know who started it? God did. And not only that, He made all these things for Himself.
    What is the chief end of man? I learned that in the catechism a long time ago, and the answer is good. The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. I don’t care who you are or where you are, God created you for His glory. Somebody says, “What about the drunkard in the street? What about that crooked man? That lost man—what about him? You mean he’s for the glory of God?” My friend, this is a strong pill—are you ready to swallow it? All of that is for the glory of God. “Oh,” you may say, “I don’t like that.” I don’t remember that God ever asked anyone whether or not he liked it. He has never asked me that.
    Very frankly, there are certain things that I don’t understand, and I think I could make some very fine suggestions to the Lord. But the Lord says, “Vernon McGee, I didn’t make this universe for you. This universe exists for Me, and you exist for Me; and you are going to be for My glory whether you are good or bad, saved or lost.” God is accomplishing His purpose today. Don’t you think it is about time you got in step with God? He is the One running the thing.
    So many people want to make sure that they are going with the crowd, going with the thing that is popular, going with the thing that will work out. Friend, I don’t know how things are going to work out in this world, but I do know this: Ultimately it’s all going to be for the glory of God. “Even the lawless for the day of evil.” God is going to make the wrath of man to praise Him (Ps. 76:10). How is He going to do that? I don’t know. Let’s wait—He will show us someday. Are you willing to trust Him and commit your way to Him and get in step with Him?
    The very wonderful thing is that God is moving this universe according to His plan and purpose. The Greeks had a proverb: “The dice of the gods are loaded.” That is exactly what God is saying in this proverb. Whether you like it or don’t like it, God is saying to you, “Don’t gamble with Me. Don’t act as if I don’t exist. You can play house as if I don’t exist, as if this is your universe and you are going to work it out your way. But I want you to know that if you start gambling with Me, you will lose. You see, this is My universe, and I make the dice to come up My way, not your way. My dice are loaded—I already know how they are coming up, and you don’t.” The thing for us to do is to get in step with God.
    A man, the Scriptures say, is a fool to live without God. “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God …” (Ps. 14:1). “… he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him” (Heb. 11:6).
    This is a pill, is it not? And it is one that is hard for men to swallow.
    McGee, J. Vernon, Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 2000, c1981.
     
  11. Alliswell

    Alliswell
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    1 John 3:8b For this purpose the Son of God was manifested: that He might destroy the works of the devil!

    1 Timothy 3:6 (qualifications for a deacon)
    "He must not be a new Christian, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil!

    Luke 10:18 (Jesus speaking) "I beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven1!

    Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels,

    8. And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    9. And the great dragon was cast out;
    That old serpent called THE DEVIL and SATAN
    was cast out and his angels were cast out with him.

    10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
    "Now is come salvation and strength,
    and the Kingdom of our God,
    and the Power of His Christ:
    For THE ACCUSER OF OUR BRETHREN is cast out
    Which accused them before our God day and night!

    11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


    12. Therefore rejoice you heavens, and you that dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down to you having great wrath, for he KNOWS that he has but a short time!

    Job 1 shows how the devil roams the earth to oppress and tempt men and then goes before the Father's throne in heaven and accuses them.

    He has to ask permission to tempt us, but 1 Corinthians 10:13 assures us that God will not allow him to tempt us above that we are able----.

    John 8:42 (Jesus speaking)If God were your father you would love Me for I---came from God---

    44. "You are of your father the devil and the works of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and did not abide in the truth, because there is NO truth in him. When he speaks a lie. he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it!"

    Me: Eve then Adam were lied to and lured to their death by him in the beginning of the human race.
    Satan was already a rebel, trying to steal the authority that God gave to Adam's race to have dominion over the earth and it's creatures.

    48. Than answered the Jews and said to Him, "Say we not well that you are a Samaritan and have a devil?

    49. Jesus answered, "I have not a devil, but HONOR MY Father, and you dishonor Me.

    50. And I seek not MY own glory---!

    John 14:30b (Jesus speaking)-------the prince of this world is coming and has nothing in Me.

    God bless! [​IMG]

    Alliswell

    [ January 29, 2003, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Alliswell ]
     
  12. Alliswell

    Alliswell
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  13. archie

    archie
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    Man makes his own choices. God gives everyone the choice of good and evil . Just look at the evils some men do. Saddam Hussein a good example. 9.11 NY ANOTHER GOOD EXAMPLE. Ted Bundy these people must pay. Imagine heaven with the likes of these people.
     
  14. Lorelei

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    Imagine heaven with any of us before we came to Christ. Heaven is open to any of these poeple and more if only they repent and turn to God.

    ~Lorelei
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv
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    While Satan may be the author of Sin, We are the authors of sinful choices. The blame for the consequences of such choices lies with us alone.
     
  16. g'day mate

    g'day mate
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    My thanks to you all
    John
     
  17. D.R.

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    I think that in order to understand the answer to the question, "Where did sin originate" one must understand why God created in the first place. Did God create for the purpose of the fall and the redemption of man and was sin purposed by God in the beginning? I would say yes. According to Rev. 13:7 Christ was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Christ Himself declared that the Old Testament testified of Him throughout. Thus sin originated from the plan of God, but God Himself does not sin (see James). Satan is merely a tool of God, used to accomplish His purposes (see the Book of Job). This debate falls into the category of the great paradox between God's absolute sovereignty and man's absolute responsibility. Too often though we side with Free-will in an attempt to keep God's nose clean (in our own eyes), and thereby forget that God Himself has declared the beginning from the end, including the sin that would occur in the world. And to turn an Open-theistic argument against itself, "whatever God knows from the beginning perfectly, cannot be changed, thus it is ordained and predestined." We would hopefully all agree that God knows all from the beginning, thus He has also ordained all to come to pass. In this way the problem of evil is solved by a focus on the outcome of it, the vindication of the elect in Christ from the foundation of the world. For more on this idea see Jonathan Edwards' incredible work, "A Dissertation Concerning the End For Which God Created the World."
    DR
     
  18. HankD

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    Here is my take:

    Somehow Almighty God has allowed sin without being it's originator.

    He has however taken the ultimate responsibility of that sin and it's consequence upon Himself (the cross).

    Soon it will be eliminated forever.

    Malachi 3
    2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
    3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
     
  19. rufus

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    Sin's origination stems from free moral agents such as Satan and men/women who use their freedom to transgress God's will.

    I John 1:5 tells us that in God there is NO DARKNESS AT ALL. There is NO SIN in God, who is HOLY by nature.

    God is responsible for the fact of free moral agents but free moral agents are responsible for sin.

    rufus [​IMG]
     

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