Sincere question for catholics.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gunther, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. Gunther

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    How long will the pope spend in purgatory?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    If he is sainted then it is presumed that the time is "Zero".

    The "wicked popes" of history are assumed to have gone to hell while others are assumed to spend time in purgatory. The good ones less time and the really good ones - saints - no time.

    Not that I AM Catholic - but I do have a commentary on the Catholic Catechism post Vatican II.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Ps104_33

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    Roman Catholics just dont know how much time they will spend in purgatory or whether they will get there or hell or heaven or nirvana or what. They can only hope. It sure is great having assurance of your salvation isnt it brother? [​IMG] I dont think God wanted us to have to guess about something so important as heaven and hell.
     
  4. FLMike

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    FWIW, the Catholic Catechism states that purgatory is a process, not a place.

    Given the holy and self-giving life that the pope led, and the amount of suffering he endured (and not only endured, but endured publicly, that we might better understand what it means to join in Christ's suffering), my vote is that he was perfectly purified at death and had no need of purgatory.
     
  5. DHK

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    Given the Catholic dogma of "the infallibility of the Pope..." who can argue??
     
  6. FLMike

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    Given the Catholic dogma of "the infallibility of the Pope..." who can argue?? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know for sure, but I'm betting that you've heard the difference between infallibility and impeccability about a thousand times. I know I have.
     
  7. DHK

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    True enough. However, Gunther has a legitimate question which I asked on another thread and really never got a satisfactory answer. I will ask the same questions again, which Gunther basically summarized into one concise question?

    Why did Cardinal Sodano have to lead a crowd of 70,000 Catholics gathered in St. Peter's Square, after the annoucement of the Pope's death, for the pope? Why are they for the pope, the vicar of Christ, after he has already died? Are they that unsure of his salvation?

    The Bishop here prayed for "the repose of his soul." Why? Was he unsure that he would have any.
    I am absolutely sure that if I were to die right now I would enter into the presence of Christ. My sins are under the blood of Christ, and I know I have eternal life.

    The bishop here also had three masses prayed for the pope after his death, as were masses said for him all over this world. Why? Are Catholics that unsure of his salvation? There is no assurance that this man will go to heaven, even though he is being considered for sainthood, even though he is the very place of Christ (vicar of Christ)? Does this make any sense at all?

    I am glad that I have been born again (Bibically), and that my sins (past, present, and future) have all been put under the blood of Christ.
    DHK
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Purgatory is a non-doctrine that comes from the non-Bible about spending non-time in a non-place getting non-torment suffering until such time as you have "suffered enough" to PAY the suffering OWED for your venial sins.

    Indulgences are a non-payment made from a non-bank to get you out of a certain number of non-days of non-time of non-torment so that you get out of tha non-place and go to the other non-place (heaven) where you can spend even more non-time.

    If you do not really work to realy earn, indulgences for your real dead ancestors and friends then they will spend MORE non-time in that non-place until such REAL team as you REALLY earn an indulgence for them or they have on their own spent enough NON-time to get themselves out.

    Non-Catholics call that nonsense.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Deborah B.

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    I think given the billion+ Catholics and millions of non-Catholics that have prayed for him, even Cardinal Benard Law could have been "prayed" out of purgatory.
     
  10. Glen Seeker

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    If we pray for someone who doesn't need prayer, are those prayers wasted? Do they just mean nothing?

    I believe that those prayers (if not needed) are either re-directed back to us or to someone who really needs those prayers.

    So, what harm in praying for the Pope? If he doesn't need them, then God will direct them to where they are needed.

    That's just my opinion. You're welcome to share it or not.

    God Bless
     
  11. Living4Him

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    The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

    The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

    "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

    Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

    Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily.

    It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

    Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

    Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

    Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
     
  12. DHK

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    The planet pluto is nowhere found in Scripture, and neither is the "fact" that it is made out of green cheese, and yet that does not disprove the existence of a planet made out of green cheese. It has always been part of the "Church" teaching. NOT!!
    The teaching of purgatory is a complete man-made doctrine which I believe Origen made up. Origen was proclaimed to be a heretic.
    You are arguing from silence. You can say anything you want from an argument from silence. You can put anything into the Bible you want if the Bible is silent about it. Your argument is complete nonsense. It has no foundation in Scripture.
    DHK
     
  13. mioque

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    Origenes, speaks about the process of meeting the Lord after death when our faults are burned away. He cites Paul's letter to the Corinthians, a text which would later become one of the major scriptural supports for the existence of purgatory:

    "If anyone builds on this foundation (Jesus Christ) with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Cor 3:12-15).

    Origen did not have in mind the idea of a place of purgation where, over the course of time, one's sins were purged away. In his thinking, fiery purgation takes place at the moment of one's particular judgment immediately after death itself. Later Church Fathers such as Gregorius of Nyssa (d. 394), Ambrosius (d. 397), and perhaps most notably Augustinus (d. 430) continued to develop this idea of a fiery purgation which would prepare us to enjoy eternal. Augustinus wrote that the pain of such fire is worse than what man could even suffer in this life.
     
  14. DHK

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    Moique,
    It really doesn't matter to me who invented purgatory: Origen or otherwise. I read from one source that is Origen. I am not going to waste my time on this thread defending it. The point is that it is a man-made doctrine that is not found in the Bible. There is as much evidence in the Bible for purgatory as there is for the planet Pluto being made of green cheese--none.
    An argument made out of silence is no argument at all.
    DHK
     
  15. BobRyan

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    The key word being "achieve". The RCC has the concept of someone being saved - born-again but having not "personnally achieved" a pure state so as to be granted heaven as a gift.

    Their "problem" is "too many venial" sins that have not gotten the "blessing and forgiveness" of an earthly priest.

    They DO have all the REAL forgiveness from Christ needed for their MORTAL sins (so they are not going to hell) but have failed to get venial sins forgiven by Catholic Priests and have failed to be purged by suffering "DUE" for those sins.

    (Imagine what a non-Catholic would OWE having never gone to a Catholic priest!!)

    Purgatory is a made-up idea for a non-place of non-suffering to send non-saints for non-time - a place " which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030).


    It is a place for the saved as L4H notes


    It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).


    Purgatory is invented by the RCC FOR the RCC's control of ITS people where the RCC claims


    The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.


    This idea of our "paying for our own sins" if we have not had that payment wiped out by confession to a Catholic priest and the associated penance made-up by said priest... is our "unfitness" for heaven our "impurity before God" that makes us worthy and unfit for heaven.... but not "so bad" as to send us to hell.

    Well when you are rigth... you are right.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    AFter observing that the man-made doctrine of PURGATORY (suffering for sins the RCC has not granted you forgiveness for... prior to death)

    Sorta like saying that the absence from scripture of any mention of "The good ship Lollypop" does not disprove its existence.

    An interesting form of "proof".

    [quote

    The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it.
    [/quote]

    True the doctrines are "clearly taught" with clear references to the PERSONS of the Godhead.

    By contrast Purgatory is not found EITHER as a WORD in scripture OR as a doctrine or Mention of "a place of sufferring" and "purification" after death.

    Wrong. There is no place in all of scripture that talks about the doctrine (without actually using the Word for purgatory) that the SAINTS go to a place of purging after death!!

    Not only does 1Peter 3 NOT have a reference to the name "purgatory" 1 Peter 3 says nothing about a place of torment OR purging reserved for the saints after death.

    This is NOT a place about saints bound for heaven and yet needing a place of torment and purging prior to going to heaven.

    It is a text about the wicked going to hell.

    And yet - the RCC would have us "Believe it anyway"

    No it explicitlyl REMOVES ALL Hope of getting forgivenes AFTER this life.

    For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment (Heb 9)

    You attempt to bend the text of Matt 12 is pure eisegesis.

    Wrong.

    1Cor 3 says NOTHING about the saint or the teacher or the person SUFFERING anything.

    1 Cor 3 says NOTHING about the process being done AFTER the death of the person.

    1Cor 3 says NOTHING about this PURGING the saints/or individual.

    1Cor 3 says that the "WORK" is the TEACHING or doctrine that is TAUGHT by the person!!

    This is a NON Catholic message board which means you have to try exegeting the text of scripture instead of just offering repeated examples of eisegesis to make your case.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    We continue now with L4H's greatest "proofs" for Purgatory ever assembled!!

    Here we have prayers said for the dead who are guilty of MORTAL sins (idolatry)!! (A case for which the RCC DENIES any benefit of indulgences or that a person with MORTAL sins goes to purgatory. The RCC teaches that they go to hell NOT purgatory!!).

    #1. This "text" does not work for the RCC since the dead in this case are guilty of MORTAL sins.

    #2. This text does not work in any case because it EXPLICITLY said that NO BENEFIT is realized by the dead WHILE they are dead. Their ONLY benefit from this prayer (according to the text) was to be AT their RESURRECTION!

    #3. This is not scripture.

    So this non-scripture continues to point out that the prayer has NO THOUGHT of benefitting the DEAD prior to resurrection.


    But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).



    The "third state" is that mentioned by Paul in 2Cor 5 - "The unclothed state" having NEITHER the decaying tent of THIS LIFE nor the eternal body made eternal in heaven. IT s the 1Thess 4 idea of those "who are asleep" the "DEAD in Christ".

    It is NOT Purgatory!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Indeed it is - for "HE shall save His people FROM THEIR SINS".

    It is the "WAGES OF SIN" Romans 6 that Christ PAID for us.

    It is "OUR CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" Col2 that is nailed to the cross.

    By CONTRAST ---

    The RCC has "WAGES of SINS FOR US to pay"

    The RCC has "A certificate of debt for US to pay"

    The RCC has "Sins from which WE ARE NOT SAVED" and which must by paid for BY US.

    A more perfect contrast with the Gospel could not be had.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    This is simply not true.

    #1. There is no place where scripture identifies us has having died "without finishing some last step of sanctification".

    #2. The RCC's ENTIRE system of INDULGENCES is living PROOF that they do NOT consider that remaining purging/sanctification/suffering to be NECESSARY! They claim that you are EXEMPT from it by grace and forgiveness of debt OWED with a VICARIOUS DEBT PAYMENT!!

    That means they argue that the earhtly suffering of PREVIOUS SAINTS is placed VICARIOUSLY in your stead to EXEMPT you from a DEBT OWED! Their payment on YOUR behalf!! This is PURELY a PAYMENT scenario!!

    #3. In 2Cor 5 we find that "IF anyone is IN Christ he is a NEW CREATION old things are passed away ALL things are become NEW" the NEW CREATION is PART of what is received IN THIS LIFE!

    It is agreed that the sanctification process does take place in this life - but you have NO proof that the saints "die needing MORE sanctification" of that "suffering is in store for the saints AFTER death".

    The IDEA of purgatory is anathema to the Gospel not just "the WORD" Purgatory.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    The Gospel NEW Birth (John 3) and NEW Creation (2Cor 5) are NEEDED because the good news is that we are not MERELY the wicked covered over by a bunch of "get out of jail free cards" but rather we are NEW creations (the Tree is made GOOD on the INSIDE to produce the GOOD fruit Matt 7).

    This is the GOSPEL - the CHANGE that happens at the START of the Christian walk with Christ.

    Right problem -- wrong solution.

    It is the GOSPEL provision of the NEW Birth, the NEW Creation that solves this problem.

    The Bible answer is that we are sanctified in THIS life. Heb 12 says NOTHING about "failing to finish the process of sanctification in this life - it is continued some place some how in the future".

    You need it to talk about "sanctification and suffering AFTER death".

    It does not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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