Sinless Perfection

Hmmm. If I said "me", I'd be lying.

If I said I was lying, I'd be telling the truth, and if I was telling the truth, I'd be lying.

OTOH, if I said I was totally free from sin, and I really was totally free from sin, I'd be guilty of pride, which is a sin, and would hence make my claim of being totally sinless a lie to boot.

So, I guess I'm not totally free from sin after all.

 

What about when he called himself the chief of all sinners. Certainly, that cannot be dismissed as rhetorical.

 

This also depends on whether it is a sin to call the AV1769 an AV1611?

 

What about when he called himself the chief of all sinners. Certainly, that cannot be dismissed as rhetorical. </font>[/QUOTE]John, you are not serious here, are you! I certainly pray not!

 

"... Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" - I Tim. 1:15.

Paul, who was saved by the blood of Christ, and knew it, considered himself chief of sinners. That's the kind of faith I want to have!!

 

I don't think we are saved by our faith, we are saved by God's grace through faith. Alot of people i think have their faith in their faith instead of Christ.

 

One Baptistboard member said, "All Baptistboard members are liars"; and such saying is true.

HAHAHAHA!

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

Craig,

I was not quoting. Sorry to make you tire your fingers.

In Christ,

Brooks

 

Well, that explains why California is about to fall into the ocean! I wonder what kind of a teaching position I can get in Afghanistan!

John, I realize full well that you are just making a joke, but some new Christians who have never read the Bible might possibly take you as being serious and thus be led into a most abysmal error. Therefore I am going to address your post as though you actually were serious.

1 Timothy 1:15. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

1 Timothy 1:15 Pistos ho logos kai pases apodoches axios, hoti Christos Iesous elthen eis ton kosmon hamartolous sosai, hon protos eimi ego.

Paul is using here the same literary device (present active indicative first person singular) that he used in 1 Cor. 15:9,

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

1 Corinthians 15:9 Ego gar eimi ho elachistos ton apostolon hos ouk eimi hikanos kaleisthai apostolos, dioti edioxa ten ekklesian tou Theou,

Paul does this to bring to the forefront of the reader’s mind a state that was, in past time, dynamically real, but has no real bearing on the present circumstances. Unlike any of the other apostles, Paul had persecuted the Church that he now realized to be body of the Christ, and therefore, had persecuted Christ himself, making himself the foremost of sinners and the least of the apostle. Needless to say, upon Paul’s conversion to Christianity, his persecution of Christ came to an immediate, abrupt end, and the sin that he found to be so loathsome was entirely and exclusively in his past.

Acts 9:3. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
4. and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5. And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
6. but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

You might ask, “How do we know for certain that we have here a literary device rather than a literal statement?” The answer to that question is very simple. If Paul was literally the foremost of sinners, that would mean that he was a worse sinner that Saddam Hussein, Ben Laden, and Adolph Hitler. But what does Paul have to say of himself in plain simple language:

Acts 22:3. "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
4. "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,
5. as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished.

Acts 23:1. Paul, looking intently at the Council, said, "Brethren, I have lived my life with a perfectly good conscience before God up to this day."

Acts 24:16. "In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.

Rom. 1:9. For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,
10. always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you.

Rom. 9:1. I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2. that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4. who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5. whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

2 Cor. 1:12. For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Cor. 4:1. Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,
2. but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2 Tim. 1:3. I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience the way my forefathers did, as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day,
4. longing to see you, even as I recall your tears, so that I may be filled with joy.

(All translated scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

Christians are not now or ever will be sinless in this life. To anyone that thinks Christians are goody two shoes, you have another thing coming.

Christians understand their depravity. We know that we were lost and had no hope of heaven on our own. A real christian has to know he is lost in order to be saved.

Once saved we have the Holy Spirit living in us which will give us a corrected moral compass. Does this mean that we now have the tools to never sin again? YES! But no one has ever done it other than Christ (God) himself. Why? Because in this body we do have the tools not to sin as a Christian, but there is not now or has there ever been a person that did let completely go of their sin. Even as Christians we love our secret sin don't we?

In this body we will always sin. That is why Christ paid it all. We are incapable of anything other than a choice. We will improve but will never reach perfection till we meet Him in the air!!

 

No! Is it even possible for a saved man to love a secret sin rather than abhor it with all of his being? No, of course not!

 

Get honest with yourself. It doesn't matter who you are. There are certain things we do not let go of. The reason we do not let go is because we enjoy it. God wants that kind of honesty from us. We hate the fact that we still sinners. The reason we still sin is because we are cursed. We may tarry for the new body and a sinless life but until we get it we are stuck with this one. Paul wanted to do right and so do we. Remember that the flesh is at emnity with the things of God. We have been liberated spiritually. Our spirit hates sin.

I apologize. I should have been more specific. Our flesh is what loves sin. The reason we fail to live a sinless life is because our spirituality is up and down. When we turn our backs and weaken even a little the flesh rises up and controls us. It is never because the flesh is weak, it is because the flesh is the most powerful thing we will ever come up against.

When we were delivered we must remember that as long as we live in this body the old man lives. The old man loved and still does love sin.

 

No, the Bible says that Jesus paid it all so that we could be free from all sin. And not only that, Jesus Himself promised that those who come to know the truth of the Gospel shall be made free from sin.

John 8:32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Dear reader, whom do you choose to believe? Those who by their own admission are still in bondage to sin, or our Savior who died to free you from sin?

John 5:14. Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

John 8:11. She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

HOGWASH

In Romans 7:1-3 Paul writes that if our old man is still alive, we are committing adultery with Christ!

1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

 

Rom. 6:2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (NASB, 1995)

 

Reading "CRAIGBYTHESEA" should be enough for you Bible correctors! If one "version" doesn't agree with his philosophy he simply changes versions. He uses a lot of words to convince us he is sinless but I would bet his family would tell a different story.

 

We will one day be ressurected. This has not happened yet!

Are you telling me that you do not sin? If you are the bible says you are a liar. Look at yourself! Your old nature and tendacies are still with you. We have been made provisionally free from sin. 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

I have not posted here one word about myself and I have not jumped from version to version!

Those who will read my posts will see that I am speaking not of myself, but Christ and His atonement for our sins, and that I am consistently using the NASB, the most accurate translation of the Bible readily available. But even if one were to read all of my posts in this thread and use the KJV instead, they would see that the message does not change.

 

1 John 3: 7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
11. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;
12. not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
13. Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. (NASB, 1995)

 

craigbythesea "-- King James Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

-- New King James Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

-- American Standard Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

-- Revised Standard Version
1 John 2:1 MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- New American Standard Bible, 1995
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- New Jerusalem Bible
1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to prevent you from sinning;
but if anyone does sin,
we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ, the upright.

-- New American Bible
1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.

-- New Revised Standard Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

--English Standard Version
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

--Holman Christian Standard Bible
My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ the righteous One.

-- Young's Bible
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,

-- Darby's Bible
1 John 2:1 My children, these things I write to you in order that ye may not sin; and if any one sin, we have a patron with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 John 2:1 Dear children, I write thus to you in order that you may not sin. If any one sins, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- Webster's Bible
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye sin not. And if any man sinneth, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

-- New Living Translation
1 John 2:1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if you do sin, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely.*

-- International Standard Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, I'm writing these things to you so that you might not sin. Yet if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, one who is righteous.

-- William's NewTestament
1 John 2:1 My dear&lt;a&gt; children, I am writing you this so that you may not sin; yet if anyone ever&lt;b&gt; sins, we have One who pleads&lt;c&gt; our case with the Father, Jesus Christ, One who is righteous.

-- Montgomery New Testament
1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you that you may not continue to sin, but if anyone sin, we ever have a Comforter before the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous."

...and that I am consistently using the NASB, the most accurate translation of the Bible readily available. ?