sinners by nature

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mont974x4, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. mont974x4

    mont974x4
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    Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (NASB, emphasis mine)


    According to the Complete Word Study Dictionary the word "nature" in verse 3 is:
    G5449

    φύσις
    phúsis; gen. phúseōs, fem. noun from phúō (G5453), to bring forth. Nature, natural birth or condition (Rom_2:27; Gal_2:15); natural disposition (Eph_2:3; 2Pe_1:4). Paul uses the word in Rom_2:14-15 speaking of the Gentiles who though not having the Law still obey it: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which show the work of the law written in their hearts." He tells us that they neither possess nor observe the written ceremonial law (cf. Rom_2:25-29), and yet they do by nature (phúsei, adv. dat.) the things of the Law, i.e., the great duties of a regenerate life (cf. Rom_2:26-27). Paul refers not to the unconverted, but to the converted Gentiles and uses the description given prophetically by Jeremiah of the Christian condition (see Jer_31:31-34 [cf. 2Co_3:3; Heb_8:6-13; Heb_10:16]). The verbs do (poiḗ [G4160]), and are (eisí [G1510]) in Rom_2:14, and show (endeíknuntai [G1731]) in Rom_2:15 are all in the pres. tense and carry a simple linear force. The pres. tense does not indicate that Paul had in mind only the Gentiles of his day. The subj. mood with hótan (G3752), whenever, establishes the fact that Paul's words are timeless and universal referring to any such cases. Apart from such cases, however, the past condition of the Gentiles was in general as degenerate and apostate as Paul previously described it (Rom_1:24). Paul continues, then, asking that because some Gentiles who do not have the Law do the things of the Law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised (Rom_2:26)? The Apostle asks, "Shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision, which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Rom_2:26-29). We should compare this passage with the contrast Paul makes between Judaistic teachers and true saints (Php_3:2-3), "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision: for we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." In examining these passages together, we find strong reason to think that the Gentiles mentioned in Rom_2:14 whose uncircumcision is counted for circumcision (Rom_2:26) are the very same sort of persons as those of whom Paul says in Php_3:3, "We are the circumcision." These are believers.
    Phúsis also means nature, essence, essential constitution and properties (Gal_4:8). It also means the constitution and order of God in the natural world (Rom_1:26; Rom_11:21, Rom_11:24; 1Co_11:14). It also refers to species of living creatures (Jas_3:7).
    The statement in 2Pe_1:4 that Christians have become "partakers of the divine nature" has been grossly misunderstood by some interpreters. God's nature here refers not to His essence but to certain of His attributes, i.e., divine qualities. It is similar to the expression in 2Pe_1:4 theías dunámeōs (theíos [G2304], divine; dúnamis [G1411], power), divine power.
    Deriv.: phusikós (G5446), natural, instinctive.
    Syn.: génesis (G1078), generation, nature; psuchḗ (G5590), soul, the inward disposition of man; charaktḗr (G5481), likeness, exact image; ḗthos (G2239), moral habits, ethics; hormḗ (G3730), an inward impulse.


    This tells me that all men are sinners by nature. We sin because we are sinners first. Those who are God's elect, by His mercy and grace, are saved.


    Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
    Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NASB)
     
  2. webdog

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    If having a sin nature makes one guilty, how are we ever saved since we retain this nature even after salvation? Since Christ was tempted and human in every way we are yet without sin, how does that fit into nature = guilt?

    Since salvation is ONLY by grace through faith, what is the fate of the miscarried or aborted child?

    The op only contradicts what Scripture teaches in the verse supplied in the op... we were dead in OUR sins and trespasses, not in our nature.
     
  3. mont974x4

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    In Ezekiel we read that God gives us a new heart and causes us to walk in His ways. Paul reminds us that we are new creations. I did not contradict anything.

    What made us dead in our trespasses and sin? Our sin nature. We were born slaves to sin. After Christ we are His bondservants and must recon ourselves dead to sin and slaves to righteousness.


    Christ was not born in sin as the Spirit came upon Mary...not a sinful father.
     
  4. webdog

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    Actually the passage in Ezekiel you are referring to in context is dealing with the nation of Israel. We are new creations, meaning we now have spiritual life, but that does not mean our sin natures have been eradicated. That is the clear contradiction. We still sin, yet are no longer dead in OUR sin.
    You are begging the question. Scripture nowhere says we were dead in our natures. Our natures lead to us sinning which made us guilty (James 1:15)


    So He wasn't a human in every way we are yet having never sinned?
     
  5. mont974x4

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    Wow, you have a real skill at spin.
     
  6. webdog

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    ...and instead of addressing the points refuted in an op you start, you resort to the childish ad hominem approach. Sounds familiar.

    Should have known :wavey:
     
  7. Winman

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    Jesus was made of the "seed of David".

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    If a sin nature is inherited from our father, then Jesus would have had a sin nature, as he was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. This refutes the superstitious belief that Jesus avoided a sin nature by being born of a virgin, and proves from the scriptures themselves that the male seed is passed by the mother to her offspring.

    Not only was Jesus made of the same exact seed as David a sinner, the scriptures say he took on the nature of the seed of Abraham who was also a sinner born after the "fall".

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    God in heaven cannot be tempted, but the scriptures tell us Jesus "suffered being tempted", that he could be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

    Jesus had the same flesh and nature we have. If we are born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus.

    I reject this, the scriptures say we are flesh. The scriptures do not teach we have a sin nature (except the NIV only).
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Jesus was BOTH God and man, who had NO imputed sin nature residinf within him!

    And God has Grace extended towards 'special cases", for the Blood of Christ and His atoing death has means to be applie dby god to those situations such as abortions, infants, mentally challenged etc!
     
  9. mont974x4

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    Actually your the one that was not addressing the topic of the post, but was twisting what was being said (both the Scripture and my comments). Thus, my comment on your spintactic skill. Let me know when you are willing to have an honest discussion.
     
  10. mont974x4

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    Jesus was fully God and fully man, yet without sin. He was not born with sin nature inherited to Him AND He was tempted yet did not sin....thus He was born sinless and remained sinless. The only way that works is for Him to be born of a woman, thus being man AND from the line of David while also being begotten of God.

    However, the topic of this thread is the nature of those of us who are fully man. Nature, in Ephesians 2:3, properly defined and understood, is that inherited nature of sin, brought into the world through Adam. Thus, we are all born sinners and deserving of wrath. If not for the grace of God we would all be justly condemned.
     
  11. Winman

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    It is very important to realize Jesus had the exact same nature as the seed of Abraham. The scriptures say he was made like unto his brethren (the Jews) in ALL THINGS. If we have a sin nature, then so did Jesus.

    The scriptures do not show we have a sin nature, in fact the scriptures show we can do good by nature.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Paul said the Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the law" which shows the law is written on their hearts. This is not evil, this is GOOD.
     
  12. Winman

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    It is very important to realize Jesus had the exact same nature as the seed of Abraham. The scriptures say he was made like unto his brethren (the Jews) in ALL THINGS. If we have a sin nature, then so did Jesus.

    The scriptures do not show we have a sin nature, in fact the scriptures show we can do good by nature.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Paul said the Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the law" which shows the law is written in their hearts. This is not evil, this is GOOD.
     
  13. mont974x4

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    Ephesians 2:3 shows we have a sin nature. I think you're creating a false argument in saying Jesus would have to have a sin nature too. That is easily avoided by His not having an earthly father.



    Yes, He wrote the law on our hearts. That is saying He gave us a conscience. That means we are without excuse, which is in keeping with what we read in Romans 1.
     
  14. Winman

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    How do you explain that Jesus is made of the seed of David unless he received the seed of David from his mother? He certainly could not have received the seed of David from his Father. And David was a sinner just like you and me.

    Paul said the Gentiles do the things in the law BY NATURE.

    Do you simply ignore scripture that refutes your view?
     
  15. webdog

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    I addressed and countered each of your posts, you should try doing the same sometime. Any spin is happening in your head. To imply I'm being less than honest in my discussion is a troll tactic. Answer my questions and deal with what I actually say for once without talking past me by introducing unrelated texts taken out of context.
     
  16. webdog

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    Winman, sin nature, flesh, etc are all synonymous for humanity. Whether one refers to the former or latter should have no bearing on the fact Christ took on humanity in every way you and I are human. The difference is Christ is also God which kept His humanity in check. After we are indwelt we don't have to sin either, since we are in Christ we can choose not to as He did. Everyone gasps when it is even hinted Christ could have sinned and that temptation couldnt have been like our temptation, but its completely anti-biblical. Whether we call it sin nature, fleshly nature, earthly nature...Christ had one!
     
    #16 webdog, Jan 31, 2013
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  17. mont974x4

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    I addressed that already. He is the line of David through Mary. I am not trying to ignore any Scripture. The Jews would also see his line through Joseph, even though no genetic material from that line was in Him.

    Christ could have sinned by choice. That is the implication of His being tempted, and yet not sinning. It is an essential part of His being our perfect High Priest and our perfect and final sacrifice. He was not born a sinner in the same manner we are. I addressed that in an earlier post as well.
     
    #17 mont974x4, Jan 31, 2013
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  18. mont974x4

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    I engaged in no troll activity. You did by claiming I was saying this I did not say. I have seen you do this time and again in other threads to other posters. Thus, you are dishonest.
     
  19. Winman

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    Of course genetic material from David was in Jesus, the scriptures say Jesus was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh.

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    How can you deny that Jesus was made of the genetic material of David?? The scriptures tell you directly that he was.

    All persons inherit genetic material from their maternal grandfather, in fact, for decades science taught that baldness is primarily inherited from your mother's father.
     
  20. mont974x4

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    You are ignoring Mary. I am not denying anything. Kindly read my posts and see what I am actually saying.
     

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