Sinner's Prayer and the PC Movement

Mr

I definitely agree that Jesus told the rich young ruler to give away all that he had to test his faith. In a similar vein Christ said that to obtain salvation someone must be willing to leave his father, mother, wife and family and follow Him. These are but two examples of the requirement that Christ must not only be our Savior but also our Lord to achieve eternal life.

Most professing Christians don't like this truth because it means that there is a cost associated with salvation. Jesus told listeners to count the cost before committing themselves to Him.

 

If there is a cost associated...it's not grace or free. I can't figure out your views...you are a non calvinist Lordship Salvation advocate. That is a truly confused view to hold.

 

You're not 'super-sensitive'. You are exactly right. And its not just SB churches.

Jesus said 'when I return will I find faith on earth?' Why did he ask that? Because he had an extra minute and extra breath in his lungs? Its because of what we see today.

Often people are led in a plan, not to a person; they trust a prayer, not a promise. Our methods are corrupt, partly because we now deal with a generation with no scriptural knowledge as opposed to just a few decades ago.

We ask people to get saved with no conviction. We ask them if they dont' 'know for sure' and they would like to know, do this; rather than telling folks that they are wicked and sinful and on the way to eternal damnation. People try to get saved because they 'don't know for sure' rather than because they 'know for sure' that they are on their way to hell.

Once a person is 'lost', it is not difficult or complicated to lead them to Jesus. This first point is waht we overstep with ou rcute methods, etc.


IMO,

R1

 

No, I wouldn't think so. Why would someone in rebellion against God even want to be saved?

 

I can agree with that but if we have no control over Baptism of the Spirit then Could you explain why? You see I've been studying this subject in scripture for a while now and Most everyone seems to agree that as soon as you are saved you receive the Holy Ghost, however in;

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

These believers were no doubt saved because they believed, yet they had not received Him. They allowed men to place there hands on them so that they would receive Him, it appears this was clearly a choice. It would seem that men can be saved without have the Spirit dwelling with in.
They had been baptised in the name of Jesus only.
MB

 

The example of the Samaritan believers in Acts 8 is an excellent illustration of the way in which the Spirit works as He will. There are various theories as to the reason "why" He wasn't bestowed as usual to these baptized believers, but the point is that He wasn't bestowed as expected. While the Samaritan believers had submitted to water baptism, as commanded, they themselves had no control or ability to submit to the baptism of the Spirit. Thus, to claim that anytime baptism is commanded or mentioned must mean the baptism of the Spirit is a flawed concept, I think. How could we be commanded to "do" something we have no control over. The baptism of the Spirit is clearly in God's hands, not ours.

 

I remember my baptism like it was yesterday even though it was nearly 50 years ago. It was a glorious event for me. I felt so clean and so right in being baptised.
I've always believed that it was because it is God's will that we should be. I'm sure this is when the Spirit took residence with in me. He has guided me ever since.
MB

 

It's wonderful you care so much for people to look into this. Not sure if the reason folks don't attend back at church is because they weren't really saved though.

From what I hear, and from my experience, people not attending church is not because they don't want to. Something happened. They experienced judgemental people or an unsafe situation you don't often find in real life (outside the church). Imo, much of what happens in church is usually far from biblical. I'll only hit it from one angle, but if you ask me, you will find more hatred and arguing in church than in the local clubs and organizations.

Churches tend to have much lower standards than any other club/organization in our area.

I can only speak from my perspective regarding my area, which is middle-upper class, mainly caucasians. People put their kids in sports, 4-H, after school programs etc...These programs are known as safe.

Yet walk into any church nursery and what will you find? Or the Youth Program?

Understaffed programs, a lack of training upon how to handle children in general, a lack of CPR/ First Aid knowledge, and lastly, the folks may not be fingerprinted. An enviornment where only trust and love is acceptable and fostered, never question anyone's motives. Criminal heaven. A zoo.

So...what do we do? We become leaders to ensure our children are safe. Then we are left alone with teenage girls on overnight trips asking for women to handle situations we shouldn't be handling. We are told we don't need to stay awake all night but we were young once, so of course, we know better. So we stay awake, already noticing the goo goo eyes past between kids we don't know well. Wondering why no one else seems to notice. Later we catch a teenage couples sneaking off alone together at midinight because the church fosters an enviornment which holds to less standards than the lost. They sleep pretending everythng is ok, because the enviornment is to foster love and acceptance. Kinda like the FLDS.

We tried a few different churches and were shocked at what we saw.

On one overnight trip, my wife went along and was told our 11 year old boy needed to sleep in the room with the boys and men, not with the females. She asked and asked, and was ordered to do this. For whatever reason, churche leaders think they are your kid's parents. They know better so you are to follow their rules and procedures for things which are totally inappropriate.

Most leaders are very bossy and don't honor personal parenting styles.

Since she rode in the church van, she couldn't just drive home. So she and my son walked to a nearby hotel and took transportation home.

Until I was obligated to be present on the church grounds while a pastor supervised visits between our foster child and his mother, no way would I allow our son to attend church with or without us. We wouldn't go near one again.

It's a whole different world in church with a whole different value system. Usually it's nothing close to biblical. Most of the church folks have been around the block, are poorer and less educated than the average Joe here.

Anther thing happened where she had to leave a Church camp over learning our son spent the night in the wilderness (A huge Teepee) outside with his camp counselor and other boys. They all were missing, no one knew where they were. They came back the following morning. Our son was 9 years old, he seemed fine, he wasn't molested or anything. This was a Deacon, scary. He remained a Deacon, even after than indescretion.That was years ago.

Imo, in our area, the people who say they believe in God yet do not attend church are more likely entering heaven than most of the church folks. You can't miss who bears the right fruit.

Just my opinion, and I may be very wrong here.

Also, we try to disciple the new people in our church. Make friends with them right off, try to keep tabs on them. Invite them places. Otherwise, they often do not come back to church. So we don't loose alot of people who attend our church, or not as many as other churches imo.

 

IMHO, I don't believe that the sinners prayer is necessary for one to be saved. However I also don't think that saying the sinners prayer precludes one from being saved. It really comes down to if the person recognizes that they are lost, and separated from God because of their sin. That they understand that the only way to be saved is to believe that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and then rose again, and by doing so, Jesus paid the debt for our sins. That He shed His blood as a sacrifice for us, that we may live. If a person believes this and trusts in Jesus to save him, then he is saved. It matters not if someone leads him in a prayer, or if he is all alone when he believes this truth, as long as he believes and has faith in Jesus. I think people seem to get to bother by what others are doing, both those that think you should "always" lead someone in a sinners prayer, and those that think you should "never" do so.

 

MB,

I agree. Sounds like a biblical way of looking at it.

 

I think it is pernicious (ruinous, evil) to equate the two mainly because what is promised via the sinner's prayer is not "open ended" like positive confession. Instead, the promise of eternal life is very specific.

Furthermore, any praying of positive confession should be prayed with "Thy will be done" because the specific result is unknown to us in terms of manifestation. But with the sinner's prayer, we have our Result and Manifestation immediately -- the indwelling of the Holy Spirit!

skypair

 

What is promised via what sinner's prayer?

To tell someone to say something to be saved is the same, no matter what is being said.

If the 'sinner's prayer' is such a great promise and the way to eternal life, where is it in the Bible?

 

The SP seems almost like a work to me since for it to work we have to really, really, really mean it. It's like we have to really strain and grit our teeth and try really hard to mean it, or else its a no-go.

 

1) The "sinner's prayer" is NOT, as you seem to understand and use it, bereft of any understanding of the gospel first.

2) It would be unbibical to tell them to pray one without them knowing and believing the gospel.

3) You seem to believe that the "sinner's prayer" is a quotation from scripture like the "Lord's Prayer." It's not. It is a prayer of repentance toward God that accepts that which was offered by the gospel. At its most basic, it could be said that the prayer acknowledges the "everlasting gospel" of God/Christ, that glorifies God, and is thankful, Rom 1:20.

You will see that not doing so leads to all the opposite outcomes of what God's "gospel" promise grants.

Where is it in scripture? Luke 18:13-14, "saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified." Or Luke 23:42-43 - "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Were these 2 saved thereby, rubato??

skypair

 

Then YOU need to simply humble yourself before what the word of God says, right? Read Luke 18:13-14, Ibaker. It's self-explanatory.

skypair

 

I'm not sure we can really use that passage as a recipe for how to get saved. It is a parable, after all, and the point is not to exalt ourselves before God and think we're better than we are. I don't think Jesus was necessarily giving a "how to get saved" example there.

 

True enough.

Right. If this 'sinner's prayer' is so important, why is it not found in scripture, and why didn't Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, nor anyone else use it?

If either of these is a 'sinner's prayer,' why do you not use it with the people you talk to?

Did the publican in Luke 18 get born again in the temple? Isn't the point of this passage the heart's condition, not the prayer he prayed?

Did the thief on the cross ask to be saved? NO. see post #25:

This is my main question: If either of these is a 'sinner's prayer,' why do you not use it with the people you talk to?

 

Peter -- Acts 2:38. John -- John 1:12 Paul -- Rom 10:9-10 There are others.

Rubato, you are looking for a set of words that you think represent some kind exorcist's trick or some spiritist's spell. Tell me how it was with you when you were saved.

I do. :jesus: They are actually a pretty poignant and show the "before and after" real well!!

Technically, he couldn't be "born again" at that time (pre-church dispensation). He was, as the verse says, "justified" which is the IRREVOCABLE first step of salvation. The OT saints (as he was) will be "born again" by bodily resurrection into the MK of Christ.

The passage parallels Rom 10:9-10: If we confess with our mouths what we believe in our hearts, we are saved. And the passage says he spoke the words. So we do have a "sinner's prayer," right?

Is it that unclear to you that he was renouncing his former destiny and turning/repenting to Christ? I think maybe you have a "formatted" sinner's prayer in mind when the real issue is did one repent toward God, glorify, and thank Him.

skypair